 Elementals, Wastes of Nuyen? |
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 Dec 6 2004, 02:23 AM
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#51
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,428 Joined: 9-June 02 Member No.: 2,860  |
Analogy doesn't work. Compress only has the bizarrely priced utility. Besides Read/Write, there's rating 1, complexity 1 word processors covered under Applications. |
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Dec 6 2004, 02:34 AM
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#52
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Explain to me why that analogy doesn't work (which I chose simply because it was the easiest one I could find to compare to modern software).
Rationalize to me how a piece of software -- with your only other available option being a piece of cyberware -- that compresses any amount of data (not just utilities) up to rating 3 should cost 1,800 nuyen. Or how it's illegal, or limited only to deckers, or any of the other hubabaloo that's been mentioned in this thread. All Utilities are not illegal or decker-only. The way one uses them is, and even then there are some that simply aren't even then (hence Compressor). Want another example? If you want a good connection via a cellular link, you have to pay out the ass, too, because that requires a Utility. Ditto for all the other links. Hell. According to some people here, system operations are illegal because that's the only way most Operational Utilities are illegal. That's *all* most of them do -- aid you in performing system operations. |
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Dec 6 2004, 03:01 AM
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#53
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Aid you in performing them when the system doesn't want you to. When the system allows you to, no rolls or utilities are needed.
Though I do have to note that I have no good answer to Compressor either. *Digs out the books again* ~J |
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Dec 6 2004, 03:03 AM
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#54
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
*shrugs* Perhaps the file formats used in the 2060's are very, very difficult to compress.
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Dec 6 2004, 03:13 AM
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#55
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You can edit files just fine, so why do you need a word processor Application? The rules and fluff text all revolve around deckers. The designers have been consistently clueless when it comes to writing them on just about every level. This just happens to be one of those areas. And while no tests may be required, you'll still likely want to make one if you want to do it quickly. |
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Dec 6 2004, 04:17 AM
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#56
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
This isn't a really fair argument either. How does a Read/Write utility, which from the operations it is in charge of seems to be more of a really hackish FTP program, affect how easily or quickly you manipulate files? Indeed, in the 2060s I'd expect most of the editing software like Notepad and the like to be included for free in any standard software bundle, much as it is in most computers today. The only time you'd need to buy something like a Read/Write utility is if you want to do something outside the norm, like break into and copy/overwrite someone else's files. After all, that is all the Read/Write utility does, by Canon; any other operations you associate with it are only a result of your preconceived notions (resulting IMO from a misinterpretation of flavor text; see below) Just because you don't make a living from decking doesn't mean you wouldn't ever want to break into someone else's computer for some reason. That, IMO, is what the "non-decker users" is referring to: amateurs rather than professionals. A CD-burning program isn't only useful for people who want to make and sell illegal copies of their CD collection, you know.
This is possibly a very good point. See, one big pradigm we're dealing with in the world of computer science today is the idea of programs as data. All programs currently in existence can be represented in the same way as the data they manipulate, giving us some powerful abilities which work well with the current binary-based computers. In the 2060s there is every possiblility that computer science has gone in the opposite direction; that now it is data that is being represented as a proceedure. Now, how is this possible, and what does it mean? As I am currently without my master's degree in 2060s computing technology I have no idea. But, it's pretty safe to say that all our current ideas of what makes sense and what does not in terms of computing have all gone out the window, and it's possible this includes the idea of compression. |
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Dec 6 2004, 04:46 AM
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#57
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581 |
The rules for Compressor are totally wacked, anyway. I don't expect it to realistically reflect the differences in compressibility of different types of data, but it'd be nice if it made some small amount of sense, and I can't come up with a single rational explanation for the Rating of the compression program limiting the uncompressed size of the data you can compress. Degree of compression, sure, speed, yeah, but uncompressed size? buhhhhhh......
The only way I can think of to bring that into shouting distance of sanity is to say that the limit is just the limit on how much data it can compress in a single Complex Action, and allow it to take multiple Complex Actions to compress larger files. |
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Dec 6 2004, 07:43 AM
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#58
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Considering the cost of everything else in Shadowrun, I say it is just inflation.
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Dec 6 2004, 08:05 AM
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#59
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
Except guns, some vehicles, and lower-class housing. Guns in particular are curiously cheap. :)
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Dec 6 2004, 08:27 AM
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#60
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Decker on the Threshold Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,922 Joined: 14-March 04 Member No.: 6,156 |
See that's what I'm saying, that maybe it's not the system itself that's wrong, but the assumptions you are bringing into it. See, right now you're assuming that data in SR is analogous to data in the real world. Specifically, you are making the assumption that data is analytic, capable of being broken down into component parts, when in fact SR seems to be presenting data as synthetic, which is rather the opposite. Consider, for example, that datasofts have ratings, rather than a continuom of values for size. This implies a measure of quantization to data that simply does not exist in the current computer paradigm. The unit of measure for program size--the megapulse--as well as the nature of the storage medium hints at a possible reason for this: data, as well as everything else, may well be stored as a proceedure. It makes sense, actually: it explains why data is saved as a "datasoft," implying software, as well as other things like why software makes up so large a percentage of the hardware costs. Now, why is this the case; why is everything being stored in proceedure form rather than in binary? Who knows; if we understood that our technology would jump up by 50 years. :) One thing is clear though; because software is incapable of being broken down without losing the integrity of the encapsulated data, compression algorithms become much more complicated, and may well require the odd steps outlined. This technology is 60 years beyond us; who knows what it might be capable of, or *not* capable of? |
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Dec 6 2004, 08:34 AM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
So yeah... elementals... I like them. Theyre pricey, but, aside from foci, what else are you spending your money on as a mage? Compared to expendable foci theyre an absolute *steal* Oh, and dont forget to use your karma reroll(s) when youre conjuring them, since the karma will (generally) refresh long before it becomes necessary again. The fact that you can have multiple elementals on call and that you need not worry about drain (for the most part) when summoning them makes them well worth the cost, IMO.
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Dec 6 2004, 08:40 AM
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#62
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
Depends on the size of the bolt and the type of stainless, and the shape the stock comes in. For the non-metalworker, carbide inserts (Disposable cutting tool) cost $15 Canadian OR MORE a peice. An hour's labor is $70+. If the bolts are less than an inch, I could see up up $30 a bolt. One foot, high tolerance bolts to an odd size could be WELL over a hundred. |
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Dec 6 2004, 08:45 AM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 56 Joined: 24-July 04 Member No.: 6,512 |
As another point to Doc Funk's side, it's worth nothing that utilities don't have a legality rating unless they're installed on cyberdecks, which do. At least, not according to anything I could find in SR3.
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Dec 6 2004, 08:51 AM
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#64
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Right, they dont have a legality rating, which means they dont have a "legal" designation either, so that observation doesnt really serve either viewpoint. If illegal, perhaps they lack a legality code because theres no way an LS officer could glance at an optical chip containing Sleaze 6 and say "oh hey, thats an illegal program!" As such, the normal game mechanic for determining if LS hassles you doesnt apply.
Edit: Dammit... here I was, trying desperately to grasp for the original topic, and I have to go ahead and contribute to the massive derailing of that topic *again.* Oh well... This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Dec 6 2004, 08:55 AM |
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Dec 6 2004, 10:14 AM
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#65
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
System operations on a system to which you don't have authorized access are going to be illegal most of the time. The only time they wouldn't be would be if you are with the NSA or similar organization, if you are trying to counter deck against a compromised system that you've been hired to fix, or some other situation in which the legal authorization to use the system is not the same as the computer designating you as an "authorized user." If you need to roll a system operation test, the odds are you are doing something illegal. On another note, I do have to say that the compress function being a utility rather than an application seems pretty goofy to me, too. And elementals are a pretty good investment if you can get your team to agree that they each get a cut of the pay and that you'll send it to them :D |
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Dec 6 2004, 11:32 AM
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#66
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
There's nothing 'inherently' illegal about breaking into computer systems, you can set your own computer system up and then attempt to break into it all day. You will need to be careful about your legal terms of use (such as the clauses about reverse engineering), but if you avoid stuff like that, it's legal.
Niolations of the wiretap act, wire fraud, theft, etc are what you are going to be charged with when breaking into other people's computers. While some software is 'monitored' by law enforcement, it's quite often legal, in and of itself. |
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Dec 6 2004, 11:48 AM
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#67
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 875 Joined: 16-November 03 Member No.: 5,827 |
You forget that you need several programs for data/information-research (using the rules in Matrix 3) => research is a legal application and needs programs with high rating.
And the programming rules in M3 AFAIK state that normal, yet complex programs like games, OS, office etc may have both a multiplier and a high programm rating. In the end: this discussion is a wonderful example for the basic flaws in the SR-Matrix-system. Illegal Compressor? Pardon me? Illegal Black Hammer? Sure. SYL |
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Dec 6 2004, 01:13 PM
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#68
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Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I can only say that for me, the utilities must be highly sophisticated hacking programs for it to make sense. Deckers pay anything for utilities because they are written by better deckers and allow them to do more wiz stuff when decking. No company would ever sell a utility that could help deckers get into their systems. They would develop it for their security deckers, and it might spread illigaly from there. Or you could buy it legaly at the same outrageous prices if you have a company of your own. SOTA software aimed at a corporate market is very highly priced in reality. Anyway, the pirate community has obviously become less anti-capitalistic in the shadowrun era. A decker that gets a hold of a hot utility wont spread it around for nothing. Maybe thatīs the way it is today as well, if you look at the top notch hackers, I dunno.
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Dec 6 2004, 04:14 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 515 Joined: 19-January 04 Member No.: 5,992 |
Besides, we all know that no company would ever, ever, Eeeeeeever would think of charging an arm and a leg for software.
O'course, I don't know what that last one does, but one has to think that considering a skill at 8 is 'world class'... Something tells me that the kinds of software bits that deckers tend to use are the kinds of code-y bits that don't really have much use in the public sector. Sure, I _could_ buy the Adobe Server Protecting Hacker Sodomizer software package for five or more digits, but it'd be overkill. As for cyberterminals? Spoiled corp kid e-penis. But I'm sleep-deprived, often confused, and flu-addled. I don't know a damn thing, and it shows. EDIT: Of course, if you don't want to pay a bungload of money for software, just start with a Rating 6 programming suite with a self-programming option, a coding PC with absurd amounts of memory, about 20 doses of Long Haul, a Sleep Regulator, and program in Renraku Teng. That'll turn your 800 days of programming time into... 6. |
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Dec 6 2004, 05:59 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 485 Joined: 25-October 04 Member No.: 6,789 |
Illegal compressor? I can see it after all only an il;legal intruder would ever really need it.
As for the Read/Write program. Have you ever nopticed that any file you open gets your E fingerprints all over it. That any time you modify a file it updates and lets everyone know when you last fudged with it. Well a Read/Write program avoids all that by making it look like A Nobody ahs touched it. B. the last time it was accessed has not changed, and C. provides the proper authetication codes. besides this one program can help a decker makes loads of nuyen in a quick hurry. Or haven't any of you thought of ordering a shipment of Ares' best then decking accounting so it is paid. |
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Dec 6 2004, 10:04 PM
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#71
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Target Group: Members Posts: 77 Joined: 26-April 04 Member No.: 6,284 |
What is "Spirit Strength"?
Also, elementals are useful because you can have a big group of them (assuming you've got the Charisma). Call them to you, astrally project and you're totally safe from bullets and explosions - just do scouting while your elementals beat guards senseless. (*cracks whip* back on topic people!) |
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Dec 6 2004, 11:01 PM
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#72
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Spirit Strength is an Awaken Compound found in Man & Machine. It gives its user all stat boosting critter powers, including movement. For a character with 6 essence this means +6 to all primary stats, +3d6 to inititive and possibly +12 to reaction depending on how the GM applies the bonuses. Combine this with the bonuses from channeling a force 6 great-form and the mage is pretty much invincible for a short time.
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Dec 7 2004, 12:16 AM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
But disregard the consequences of its use. Most people who recommend it would prefer you not to see that part.
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Dec 7 2004, 12:31 AM
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#74
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
The trick is timing and having a place to sleep it off. 7-12 hours of all 1s aren't that bad if you're asleep throughout that period. I lasts for at least 7 hours, provided essence of 6, and, unlike mundane drugs, it is not addictive. |
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Dec 7 2004, 12:33 AM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,049 Joined: 24-March 03 Member No.: 4,323 |
Honestly, the negative aftereffects arent *that* bad. Your physical attributes are all reduced to 1 for 6-12 hours. Ok, you go home (or to a safehouse) and sleep it off. If you dont expect to have that opportunity, then you should probably not be taking the drug. As far as I can tell the substance isnt even addictive, making it a far superior alternative to pretty much any other combat drug.
Edit: right... 7-12. Yay functionally simultaneous and nearly identical posting! This post has been edited by Jason Farlander: Dec 7 2004, 12:35 AM |
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