 I'm fiddling with a Firearm..., Need Raygun's Opinion... |
  |
  Dec 5 2004, 01:03 PM
Post
#1
|
|
|
The Sewer Jockey  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197  |
Hiya...
Just wanted a quick bit of opined input... I'm working a Calico M950 for a Pilot's PDW rig and wanted somebody's input on the matter... It's a hefty piece in terms of size and weight (that'll be the 50 round helical mag, huh?) and is chambered for 9 mil para... but since I know sweet FA about firearms (and am working from my well-thumbed '96 copy of Jane's GUNS recognition guide), I thought I'd ask: 6L, 6M (since it's technically a pistol) or something higher, since it's pretty much a shortened SA version of the M-960 with almost no other difference? Also, if anyone has any practical experience of this (or a similar) firearm, exactly how big and cumbersome (and inconvenient) is the 100 round mag? Thanks in anticipation, DB |
 |
 
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 01:35 PM
Post
#2
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Assuming you are working with the 'pistol' version of the calico, you are probably looking at:
Submachinegun Conceal 4 Rounds 50 Damage 6M It could probably be made selective fire as well, if you wanted to bother (SA/FA). the 100 round mag reduces conceal by 1 (id say more, but plenty of full sized rifles are conceal 2) The 'carbine' version Submachinegun Conceal 2-3 (probably 3) rounds 50 or 100 Damage 6-7M SA/FA |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 01:45 PM
Post
#3
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Why on earth would you use a heavy (when loaded) and extremely poorly balanced handgun that fires a relatively low-power round on semi-automatic only?
Is this for an otherwise canon (at least as far as firearms are concerned) game of SR? Since you can't make a SMG SA only according to the Cannon Companion rules, you're stuck with 6L-7L for the damage code. The M950 has a long barrel compared to most other 9x19mm pistols, but very short compared to any SMGs chambered for the same, and it's not as if the 9x19mm would be particularly powerful even out of a 400mm barrel. If you were to make an M960 SMG, I'd say 6M definitely. With a full 100-round magazine, it weighs around 2.5kg. That's massive, 0.25-0.3kg more than a loaded Desert Eagle (Mk XIX), and most of that weight is very high, making the weapon extremely unbalanced. Can't say I have actual experience of that, but I would think it would be a horrible combat handgun. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 02:05 PM
Post
#4
|
|
|
The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197 |
I'm not looking for a combat handgun, boss, as I said... I'm planning on utilising it as a PDW for downed pilots - for example where carrying a lot of spare clips is impractical, but a single weapon with a 100 round capacity would be handy. I would imagine that the weight wouldn't be too much of a problem - at 1000g loaded with a 50 round mag, and the mag itself taking up 810g of that, the 100 round mag would make it, what, about 1800g? Not too much, I daresay... and your loaded Desert Eagle has a cap of, what, 7 rounds of .50?
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 02:22 PM
Post
#5
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
No. That's 1000g unloaded, without magazine. That means 1.8kg loaded with a 50-round magazine, ~2.5kg with a 100-round magazine. The .50AE Desert Eagle does indeed have a 7-round magazine. A PDW is a combat weapon. I'd still say being FA-capable would be a good thing, or at least being BF-capable. Otherwise you've basically got a cumbersome Light Pistol with a huge magazine. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 5 2004, 02:28 PM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
The balance with the 50 round mag isn't supposed to be 'too bad' (whatever that means), though the 100 round mag in the pistol version is probably a real armfull.
There are plently of small SMGs chambered in 9mm like the TMP, the micro and mini uzi, etc. As for using it as a PDW, pilots are not John Rambo. If they run into something that they can't solve with ~25 rounds or so of 9mm, they are probably better off surrendering. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 04:19 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,577 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Gwynedd Valley PA Member No.: 1,221 |
Right. Down'ed pilots are taught evasion and hiding, the gun is the last resort since they will be outnumbered. If you do want lots more ammo. 100 rounds is too damn much. It is easier to carry 4, 20 rd clips, say 2 on each leg with one in the gun and have the same effect.
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 06:29 PM
Post
#8
|
|
|
The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197 |
Fair enough! I can do nothing other than bow to your opinions - since A) I have no idea what I'm talking about anyway ;) and B) In my country, if you're shot down you hide in a frenchman's cafe and drink copious amounts of tea... or pretend to be a French Policeman... "I was pissing by the dooor, when I 'erd a sheet...
On the plus side, though, I managed to make an accurate gunbunny statement - about the Deagle - so I'm happy with my progress... wonder if I can get a stick-on star from my kindergarten teacher? :oops: :? |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 07:16 PM
Post
#9
|
|
|
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
*sticks a silver star on Drain Brain's forehead*
Here's a rifle that was developed as a survival gun for downed pilots. Springfield's M6 Scout. Not really anything beyond utilitarian, but good for small game hunting or close-range sniping, should it be necessary. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 07:20 PM
Post
#10
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Are you familiar with what is currently used for a pilots survival weapon? If you do look you would realize how absurd a Calico would be in that situation. I mean no offense to you by that. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 5 2004, 09:18 PM
Post
#11
|
|||
|
The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197 |
Actually mate, I hadn't looked... I was working simply on the basis of my own musings and what I thought would be the requirements for such a weapon - basically, good ammo capacity, really. In practical terms, I know sod all about firearms or their application, save what I know from work - I handle blank firing guns for a properties company (theatre and so forth) - and that runs merely to revolvers of various types. I find firearms intriguing in and of themselves, but being in Britain is not conducive to the persuance of such a hobby... Out of interest, since we seem to have discounted the aforementioned Calico from this purpose, does it have a purpose? It's too bulky, unbalanced and cumbersome to be a combat pistol, so what use is it? Or the rifle version (the 900)? The only one that seems to make sense is the SMG (960 I think). |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 5 2004, 09:24 PM
Post
#12
|
|||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
Hmm, there's an idea for a physad power. "John Rambo's anti-bullet magnetism. This power makes the physad emit a magnetic field that slightly deflects metal rounds that are fired towards him causing them to miss in most cases. This is the same power exhibited by Rambo in all the Rambo movies where half a dozen or more guys open up on him with assault rifles and machine guns but they simply never hit him for some mysterious reason. For every 3 power points spent on this power, the physad gives a +1 TN penalty to anyone who shoots at him with metallic rounds." |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 5 2004, 09:25 PM
Post
#13
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
IMO no it doesn't have a purpose. I haven't been on the cutting edge of the gun scene for many years but IIRC it never did see much use and it really wasn't sought after by anyone as far as I know. When the FN P90 came along I think the calico's life was essentially ended. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 5 2004, 09:36 PM
Post
#14
|
|
|
The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197 |
But the P90 seems to have a point to it! The Calico doesn't...
But there's a bonus point to anyone who can name the film where the big black dude from the Candyman films weilds one - whilst wearing a particularly cool hat, might I add... I'll give you a clue: "Lem'me do a quick impression for ya: 'Kaw, Kaw, Bang, Fuck I'm dead'!" |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 09:50 PM
Post
#15
|
|
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
There are lots of guns that don't really have a point. The Calico pistol does seem to be one of them. Assuming the Calicos are reliable, the M-960 might be semi-useful (all it is is a slightly quirky SMG), and the M-900 might be a fun gun to shoot all day in a firing range or to hunt some small game with.
Fancy that, we have the Jane's GRG of the same year... |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 10:04 PM
Post
#16
|
|
|
The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197 |
*grins* It's my faay-vwit book ;)
All those shiny pictures... Actually, that's a lie - I like my BBB better... so sad, I know... |
|
|
|
|
Dec 5 2004, 10:04 PM
Post
#17
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 870 Joined: 6-January 04 From: Idaho Member No.: 5,960 |
Well IMO the Calico was an early attempt at the same concept as the p90. The end result was just too unrefined...and granted they probably just didn't have the technology to make a 100 round SMG uncumbersome. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 5 2004, 11:05 PM
Post
#18
|
|||||
|
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Not that odd. There have only been three editions. 1996, 2000, 2002. I have the 96, too.
And it's pretty unlikely that they ever will, at least in any useful cartridge. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 5 2004, 11:15 PM
Post
#19
|
|||||
|
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Still, I find it funny that so many people refer to the exact same book (if you can really call it that) for most of their gun-stuff. I wouldn't think there's a huge lack of affordable books with general information about guns. |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Dec 6 2004, 01:53 AM
Post
#20
|
|||
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That surprises me. I figured you would have the latest book for sure. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2004, 03:17 AM
Post
#21
|
|||||||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Actually, in my experience, there is a lack of general information books on small arms. I've only seen a few that try and do the same thing the Jane's guide does, as most, in my experience, tend to lean towards the hunting side of things. Hell, I can't say I've been too impressed with what I have seen. The internet may be less reliable (though there are some errors in the Jane's guides, and more in the other books I've seen), but it's far more inclusive, and skillful researching can filter out most of the erroneous stuff. world.guns.ru fo' life, yo. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Dec 6 2004, 03:55 AM
Post
#22
|
|||
|
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Paladin Press. Krause Publications. Greenhill Books. All publish some very good firearm-related books.
Meh. I have plenty of other books. The Guns Recognition Guide is very general in its information. It gives you a picture, some stats, and a short blurb about each gun. It's handy if you see a gun you don't recognize and that's about it. Not to sound all egotistical and shit, but I haven't picked it up in a very long time. Most of Hogg's books go along the same kind of vein, only differing in the level of detail paid to each gun. Like Arethusa said, you can also find that kind of information online realitively easily, often directly from the manufacturer. These days I'm more interested in specific things rather than general data, for which books from Paladin Press and a subscription to Small Arms Review handle nicely. I only buy books anymore if the information is particularly difficult to find elsewhere. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Dec 6 2004, 04:01 AM
Post
#23
|
|
|
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It's cool. I wasn't casting aspersions ... merely expressing my surprise that someone as in-touch with firearms as you obviously are has the oldest version of the book. As I know next to nothing about the subject, but have heard that the various 'Jane's Guides' books are (sometimes) considered to be standards, I would have figured it would be a staple for a person with your interest. :)
|
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2004, 04:23 AM
Post
#24
|
|
|
Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
It was much more useful once upon a time. Before the internet. And Jane's does have other books that are very informative, mostly the Infantry Weapons, Ammunition Handbook, Police and Security Equipment, and other annuals that cost a great pretty penny to get ahold of.
If you're just getting into guns, the Recognition Guide is definitely one of the better books to have. It does cover an awful lot of firearms from about the last quarter of the 19th century on, and the information in it is generally edited well, holding to a higher standard of correctness than you're likely to find in one place on the internet. |
|
|
|
|
Dec 6 2004, 04:58 AM
Post
#25
|
|||
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
The Crow Thanks for the point. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 3rd June 2023 - 12:41 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.