Edge Weapons and Impact Armor

Edge Weapons and Impact Armor

U_Fester View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 12:54 AM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863	If APDS halves down Ballistic Armor does Edge Weapons halve down Impact? Example of a catchers vest. It helps on getting hit from a baseball, but would suck with getting stabbed. Even with kelver, a pointed weapon can punch a whole in it.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 12:55 AM Post #2
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	No.

Cray74

Dec 6 2004, 12:56 AM

Post #3

Running Target

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QUOTE (U_Fester)

If APDS halves down Ballistic Armor does Edge Weapons halve down Impact?

No.

ES_Riddle

Dec 6 2004, 01:05 AM

Post #4

Moving Target

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QUOTE (U_Fester)

If APDS halves down Ballistic Armor does Edge Weapons halve down Impact?

Example of a catchers vest. It helps on getting hit from a baseball, but would suck with getting stabbed. Even with kelver, a pointed weapon can punch a whole in it.

Kevlar would be ballistic armor.

And a stab with a knife that is going to do some significant damage is one that is probably already staged up to D+, so you can't stage it down completely without 8 or higher body. I'd rather be wearing my leather jacket than not if someone is trying to slash me with a knife; the incidental cut wounds (the L base of the knife+1 success) are going to be shallower if I have that on.

Kagetenshi

Dec 6 2004, 01:09 AM

Post #5

Manus Celer Dei

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QUOTE (U_Fester)

If APDS halves down Ballistic Armor does Edge Weapons halve down Impact?

Example of a catchers vest. It helps on getting hit from a baseball, but would suck with getting stabbed. Even with kelver, a pointed weapon can punch a whole in it.

To turn the question on its head, would blunt weapons halve Impact? After all, if you get stabbed or slashed with a blade and you're wearing chain mail, well, not much is going to happen. On the other hand, if someone takes a baseball bat to you you're going to be hurting pretty bad.

The answer to both is no. For better or for worse and certainly for simpler SR does not take type of damage into account when calculating effects against armor.

~J

U_Fester View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 01:15 AM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863	Thanks, After your explanation, I can see how it rules just generalize it. Basically impact armor can be thought of something like chain mail that is padded.

Fresno Bob View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 01:18 AM Post #7
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252	Its more like rigid densiplast plates. Like those armored motorcycle jackets.

Kayne View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 01:20 AM Post #8
Target Group: Members Posts: 50 Joined: 5-August 04 Member No.: 6,541	As I understand it, kevlar does work on knives and edged weapons, from a slash or a stab. However, if you want something that halves impact armour, then why not use a monowhip?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 01:26 AM Post #9
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Kevlar does in and of itself protect against bladed weapons. It was not historically woven tightly enough to do so, IIRC, nor is it always woven that tightly today. However, that practice is becoming more common. ~J

U_Fester

Dec 6 2004, 01:33 AM

Post #10

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Kayne)

However, if you want something that halves impact armour, then why not use a monowhip?

Because I role poorly.

Herald of Verjig... Herald of Verjigorm View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 01:40 AM Post #11
Runner Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017	Despite the high entertainment value of shifters with monowhips and a "fail and lose a limb" house rule, the books only state one condition where you get to slice yourself with a monowhip. Specifically, it is when the intended victim uses full defense, doesn't counter all your successes with it's skill roll, but does manage to dodge out of the way afterward. However, rule of 1 still isn't your friend.

Austere Emancipa...

Dec 6 2004, 01:44 AM

Post #12

Great Dragon

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Selection and Application Guide to Personal Body Armor by the National Institute of Justice

QUOTE (SaGtPGB)

4. Body Armor Construction

How Does Ballistic-Resistant Body Armor Work?
When a handgun bullet strikes body armor, it is caught in a “web” of very strong fibers. These fibers absorb and disperse the impact energy that is transmitted to the vest from the bullet, causing the bullet to deform, or “mushroom.” Additional energy is absorbed by each successive layer of material in the vest, until such time as the bullet has been stopped. Because the fibers work together both in the individual layer and with other layers of material in the vest, a large area of the garment becomes involved in preventing the bullet from penetrating. This also helps in dissipating the forces that can cause nonpenetrating injuries (what is commonly referred to as “blunt trauma”) to internal organs. Unfortunately, at this time no material exists that would allow a vest to be constructed from a single ply of material.

Today’s generation of concealable body armor can provide varying levels of protection to defeat most common low- and medium-energy handgun rounds. Body armor designed to defeat rifle fire is of either semirigid or rigid construction, typically incorporating hard materials such as ceramics and metals. Because of its weight and bulkiness, it is impractical for routine use by uniformed patrol officers and is reserved for use in tactical situations, where it is worn externally for short periods of time when confronted with higher level threats.

How Does Stab-Resistant Body Armor Work?
Stab-resistant body armor works by many of the same principles as ballistic-resistant body armor. Stab- and puncture-resistant armors are made from a variety of materials. The most common designs use multiple layers of materials. These layers are made from extremely strong fibers that can be either woven or laminated together. Other materials used are metals and composites. As the threat impacts the armor, the materials either deflect the threat, or due to their very high levels of tensile strength and cut and/or tear resistance, they slightly “stretch” before breaking or being cut. This “stretching” spreads the impact forces over a larger area of the armor and dissipates the strike energy from the threat, eventually stopping the threat. Most often, multiple layers of materials are needed to successfully stop typical threats. Some of the top layers of material may be defeated, but if properly designed, the armor will stop the threat with little to no penetration. The backing layers provide additional strength to the armor, and each layer assists in dissipating the strike energy.

Many of the same materials are used in both ballistic-resistant armor and stab-resistant armor, with one important distinction. Because knives, picks, and spikes are pointed, the initial contact forces for stabs threats are very high. These high forces pose a risk to ballistic-resistant armor. To counter this, stab-resistant armors are normally made from very tightly woven fabrics or from very closely spaced laminated layers.

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 01:47 AM Post #13
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	I wear a IIIa vest at work. I wish I could remember what company made it, but the tag on the carriers wore off long ago. It is actually very resistant to a stab from most knives, even with a great deal of force behind it. However : A double-edged knife can still get through with a good arm behind it. Also : Believe it or not, it actually does a pretty good job of absorbing blunt-force blows, that or I do.

U_Fester

Dec 6 2004, 01:53 AM

Post #14

Moving Target

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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

However, rule of 1 still isn't your friend.

Like I said I role POORLY when I play. I role high when I GM (my groups hates me) but the rest it is all ones.

algcs

Dec 6 2004, 02:00 AM

Post #15

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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)

Specifically, it is when the intended victim uses full defense, doesn't counter all your successes with it's skill roll, but does manage to dodge out of the way afterward.

But what about all those party members standing around me? Not that in party fatalities seems to bother my current group.

Austere Emancipa...

Dec 6 2004, 02:09 AM

Post #16

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)

Believe it or not, it actually does a pretty good job of absorbing blunt-force blows, that or I do.

Bullet-resistant body armor excels at protecting against blunt trauma, mostly because that's basically what getting hit by a bullet is. The rather light vests I wore in the Finnish DF would not have stopped a 9x19mm FMJ at close range, but they were absolutely baseball bat proof. There have been several incidents where such vests have saved the lives of people who have suffered blunt trauma in vehicles accidents, etc.

John Campbell

Dec 6 2004, 02:31 AM

Post #17

Running Target

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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)

To turn the question on its head, would blunt weapons halve Impact? After all, if you get stabbed or slashed with a blade and you're wearing chain mail, well, not much is going to happen. On the other hand, if someone takes a baseball bat to you you're going to be hurting pretty bad.

You might be surprised at how well mail protects against blunt impact.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 03:03 AM Post #18
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	When it isn't backed with anything at all? I would be quite surprised, yes, but if you've got information to the contrary I'd love to not make the same mistake again. ~J

Arethusa View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 03:18 AM Post #19
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Mail isn't ever worn without padding. It's marginally useful against anything if you wear just a mail hauberk and nothing else.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 03:40 AM Post #20
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	It's quite useful against any kind of cutting or sawing action without a lot of force behind it. What is protecting you from the impact as opposed to the cutting isn't to any meaningful degree the mail itself, it is the backing absorbing that (and the backing isn't very good protection against a piercing/cutting attack, usually. Fancy that). While I agree that I am setting up a situation that will not occur in the real world, I disagree that its value as an example is lessened thereby. ~J

Lindt View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 03:42 AM Post #21
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105	Having had the oppertunity (mis-oppertunity?) of backpeddelling at full sprint into a tree, I can say while is dosent keep you from getting bruised, it DOES do a good job of keeping the skin on your back. Leaves REALLY odd looking bruises though...

John Campbell View Member Profile	Dec 6 2004, 04:23 AM Post #22
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,028 Joined: 9-November 02 From: The Republic of Vermont Member No.: 3,581	The mass of the mail can do quite a lot to slow down incoming blows and sap their power. The effect depends on the mail having room to travel a bit, so it needs to be hanging loose... if it's stretched tight against the body, it won't do much but make the bruises look more interesting. Swinging out away from the body, as with a turn, is even better... the mail's momentum directly counters the blow's. I've found that sometimes that effect can even go far enough to actually stop incoming blows completely before they touch me. Leg shots especially... the skirt of my hauberk swings out quite a lot when I'm moving. Now, don't get me wrong... if someone were coming after me with a baseball bat, I'd rather be wearing my plate than my mail. But given the choice between the mail without the gambeson or the gambeson without the mail, I'd take the mail without the gambeson. And that'd be an informed decision... I've been hit both ways, and know what each feels like.

U_Fester

Dec 6 2004, 04:27 AM

Post #23

Moving Target

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QUOTE (algcs)

[Not that in party fatalities seems to bother my current group.

Your current group lives for TKing. Every game play a new character is brought in... heck sometimes two.

RangerJoe View Member Profile	Dec 23 2004, 04:18 PM Post #24
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 22-June 02 From: Parts Without Member No.: 2,897	Apparently armored clothing is not just for the 2060s anymore. Presenting Ballistic 0 / Imapct 2.

RangerJoe View Member Profile	Dec 23 2004, 04:18 PM Post #25
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 749 Joined: 22-June 02 From: Parts Without Member No.: 2,897	I I love love double double posts posts.....

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