 APDS vs bodies |
 Dec 8 2004, 03:15 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871  |
Given that APDS ammo transfers less energy to the target shouldn't the ammo do less damage to a target due to the fact that it will so easily penetrate it? It will leave a hole but it isn't going to leave a tunnel. A shot that hits something vital will still kill but it is harder to do. |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:20 PM
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#2
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Energy isn't really relevant to damage (as opposed to penetration) in and of itself. That being said, yes, a shot should theoretically do less damage given that it'd be making a neat little hole through someone. Whether this needs be covered in the rules is a matter of personal opinion.
~J |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:21 PM
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#3
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Yeah, but then what are we looking at? Take a guy with ar jacket 5/3 being hit by a 9M round.
-1/2 5 = 2 so round is effectively 11M in that situation now, say APDS halves amrour, but suffers -2 power due to less energy transfer.. See where I'm going with this? |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:29 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871 |
Guy with 5/3 jacket gets hit with a 9M APDS round. 9M - 2 for ar - 2 for APDS = 5M vs a 7M currently. Sounds good. Or would it be better to stage the damage down? Guy with 5/3 jacket gets hit with a 9M APDS round. 9L due to APDS = 7L vs a 7M currently. |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:30 PM
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#5
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
There was some conflict in which soldiers were using primarily AP ammo because they thought it would work better, against unarmored drugged up opponents. The ammo ended up punching neat little holes in people who didn't feel it, and it took more shots that normal to drop each of them, resulting in lots of wasted ammo.
This is why the M-16 is made to tumble its rounds after impact. Goes in through the armor, then tumbles about inside of you, and then maybe goes out another side of the armor, or just stops from being in you. algcs, non APDS would do 4M, APDS does 7M. If it got dropped back down to 5M, what good is it? |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:34 PM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Somalia, perhaps?
Pure myth. |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:41 PM
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#7
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
I don't remember, I think they were fighting guys drugged up with coke.
This site begs to differ. As do many, MANY others. |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:46 PM
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#8
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It's internet bullshit. The tumbling effect is absolutely not what it is hyped as, and it does not "tumble about inside of you, and then maybe go out another side of the armor, or just stops from being in you." I suggest you look at some IWBA gelatin tests for some scientific basis and then read up on firsthand accounts of the "effectiveness" of 5.56x45mm and it's much vaunted tumbling and fragmentation. |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:55 PM
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#9
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,012 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Incidentally, am I missing something or is 12" way more than should be needed to reach vital organs? Hell, on me that's most of the way through any part of my torso horizontally.
~J |
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Dec 8 2004, 03:56 PM
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#10
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
Ah, sorry, wasn't explicit enough. 9M Regular round vs 5 ballistic : 4M 9M APDS with -2 power vs 5 ballistic : 5M 9M APDS as is vs 5 ballistic: 7M 9M ExEx round (so 11M) vs 5 ballistic: 6M 9M Regular vs no armour : 9M 9M APDS with -2 power vs no armour: 7M 9M APDS as is vs no armour: 9M 9M ExEx vs no armour: 11M My point is, nerf APDS rounds and there is NO point in using them unless you're shooting at ballisitc rating of at least 8, which is just never going to come up. ExEx will pretty much always be preferable. Currently, APDS fares at least as well as the the much, much cheaper and available ExEx round at ballistic rating of 4+, which is common enough. |
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Dec 8 2004, 04:03 PM
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#11
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Chicago Survivor Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 5,079 Joined: 28-January 04 From: Canton, GA Member No.: 6,033 |
Anyone else seeing Jack Black's character from teh Jackal in their head, "Yeah, sprawl baby."
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Dec 8 2004, 04:14 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871 |
A -2 might be a bit much. I was waiting for more people to chime in on it. Anyone know what the effects of hollowpoint rounds are? +1 to the Damage Rating? Still APDS ammo is the only stuff that is going to be effective vs harded security armor and barriers. Unarmored guy gets hit for a 9M. With APDS it is a 7M vs 9M for normal. Guy with jacket and underroos with 9/5 protection gets hit with a 9M APDS round. 9M - 4 for ar - 2 for APDS = 3M vs a 2M for normal. If you GM gives you a bonus for having that extra armor on it makes APDS that much better. Guy with 10/10 hard armored suit. 9M - 5 for armor - 2 APDS = 3M vs Ping |
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Dec 8 2004, 04:15 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 24-September 04 Member No.: 6,700 |
hmm, you could stage dmg level one down..
that would make vs 5/3 jacket.. 9M Regular round vs 5 ballistic : 4M 9M APDS vs 5 ballistic : 7L 9M ExEx round (so 11M) vs 5 ballistic: 6M 9M Regular vs no armour : 9M 9M APDS vs no armour: 9L 9M ExEx vs no armour: 11M My SR characters tend to end up with 6/5 armor which would mean here.. 9m regular: 3M 9M Apds... 6L 9M EXEX 5M makes apds start to be interesting.. and really the only good choice vs 7+ armor.. but not that great vs unarmored.. DS |
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Dec 8 2004, 04:18 PM
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#14
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Here is some gelatin tests. It does fragment, but at lower velocities (meaning longer ranges) it tumbles instead. |
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Dec 8 2004, 04:23 PM
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#15
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Ain Soph Aur Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,477 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Montreal, Canada Member No.: 600 |
-1 Damage Code does make an interesting mix..
But what about weapons that do base Light damage? No APDS for them? |
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Dec 8 2004, 06:03 PM
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#16
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Actually I do give APDS and AV a -1 power against squishies, I have for years.
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Dec 8 2004, 06:06 PM
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#17
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Let me start by: It Really Depends But and It's Not Quite This Simple But.
Like Kagetenshi said in his first post, energy transfer isn't important, not compared to the size of wound cavity. For all comparisons between the SR APDS and Standard ammunition types, it is most meaningful to compare RL Amor Piercing and FMJ/Ball ammunition (and other solids). Cannon Companion already introduces a number of deforming/fragmenting ammunition types, most importantly the Hollow Point which corresponds to most defense handgun and hunting (other than big game) ammunition in use today. Most FMJ ammunition does not deform or fragment upon hitting humans, as you can see from the 9x19mm 124gr FMJ, .45 ACP 230gr FMJ, 5.45x39mm 53gr FMJ, 7.62x39mm 120.5gr FMJ and 7.62x51mm 150gr FMJ wound profile illustrations. Because of the round or sharp ogive shapes of the bullet's nose, these ammunition types leave permanent wound cavities of about the same diameter as the bullet itself. The more to the rear of the bullet the mass center is, the more likely it is to tumble and the sooner it will do so. Current assault rifle rounds are often particularly long and are designed such that their mass center is as far back as possible to facilitate tumbling. The M193 and M855 and certain 7.62x51mm FMJ designs are a special case -- not only do they have a strong tendency to tumble, but they also tend to fragment when they do so at sufficiently high velocity. What I think Arethusa was getting as is that the velocity break-off point is pretty high, so the range where you are likely to get fragmentation is not too great even with a long-barreled weapon and it is insufficient in many cases with short-barreled weapons. Even when the velocity is sufficient, fragmentation does not always occur upon tumbling, nor is it exactly certain (although it is very, very likely) the bullet will tumble in the first place. This effect certainly does not happen after the bullet has penetrated body armor, because that slows the bullet down significantly, and is quite likely to deform the bullet in some way as well. Anyway, like I said, these are special cases. Most FMJ ammunition does not deform or fragment. Compared to (nearly) full-caliber armor piercing designs, like the M993 and M995, the only real advantage of FMJs in terminal ballistics is their tendency to tumble -- current penetrator designs are very unlikely to tumble. Apart from that, the less sharp/round penetrators will tend to produce permanent wound cavities about as large as those produced by FMJ rounds. With most pistols, where tumbling is insignificant anyway, there is very little loss of terminal effect when going from FMJ to AP. APDS is different, because there the actual projectile is by definition much smaller in diameter than a standard FMJ for the same weapon would be. With saboted ammunition, it is perfectly reasonable to reduce the Damage Code in some way. However, I personally think you'll be better off just thinking of the SR APDS as plain AP. Even then, a slight drop is justifiable, if that's what you want for your games. There has been a huge number of threads on these same issues in the past. Searching for things like "wound cavity" or anything by the poster "Raygun" from since the beginning of this forum, and you'll find them. |
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Dec 8 2004, 07:47 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863 |
I still think the reason APDS gives more damage even to non-armored characters is the kinetic energy of the bullet. Kinetic energy of a weapon is mass x (Velocity Squared)/450240 = ke. Because the armor piercing round is going faster along with the weight it has more energy.
Take a look at the difference between .22 and .45. A .22 has twice the velocity of a .45, but the mass is less than one tenth. Because of this the .22 has less kinetic energy than the .45. If you were to shoot a person with a .22 in the chest, there is a great chance that the person is going to stand and keep coming. If you were to shoot the same person in the hand with a .45, there is a very good chance that the person is going to be knocked down because of the force (kinetic energy). When APDS is used in real world (armored jacket bullets sometimes knows as cop killers) the results are similar. An armored 9mm will go though the bulletproof jacket, negating the bulletproof vest, stripping some of if not most of the armor jacket and leaving a regular shell to give the regular and horrific damage to the person on the other side. If the person does not have a vest on, it leaves a nice neat whole in the person. This is where the kinetic energy comes into play with the weapon. A shot to the chest of a person with a APDS round of a rugger super warhawk (roughly a .44 if I read it correctly) would not only leave a whole, but would do a lot of damage because it is a HUGE piece of lead entering and leaving the body as well as all the force that comes with it. Look at deer hunting. You hit a deer with a .270 there is a chance that the deer is going to run away and you will have to do some tracking. Use a .308 there is going to be more of a chance that there is going to be knockdown. This knockdown keeps the deer from running and more of a chance of a quicker death. Because of this I see APDS not working fully on Vehicles because the Armor Plating negates the APDS and then the metal in the Vehicle is takes the rest. Metal is strong than skin on this fact. For rounding down the damage on unarmored people when using APDS I would have to go against because there is more than speed and whole size when getting shot with a bullet. my two cents worth |
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Dec 8 2004, 08:06 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871 |
That was kinda the point. A nice neat hole is less damage than the regular wound path a non AP round would make.
Hard metal or composite armor are the very things APDS is designed to defeat. It functions the same as a tank's SABOT round. Anyway I think it has been worked out in the APDS vs vehicles that vehicle armor uses values that are different than barriers or personal armor. |
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Dec 8 2004, 08:11 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863 |
But more needs to be taken into account than just putting a whole into something. If you were apiece of paper, it doesn't matter how fast, the force and such of the bullet. Flesh is something alltogether. It doesn't matter that just that the whole is put through you, but how the whole was put through you.
I see the thread now. I would agree since that a vehicle can support much more weighted armor than even a cybered character probably could. |
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Dec 8 2004, 08:23 PM
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#21
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Like I thought I explained already, they might have more energy or they might not. In most cases, armor piercing ammunition has only slightly more kinetic energy than non-armor piercing ones.
I have no idea where you're getting this information from, but it's utter BS. The rimfire .22 LR Standard Velocity manages around 1000-1150fps with most loadings (in the 36-40 grain range), only the Hyper Velocity loads with extremely light bullets (well below 30 grains) get to 1600-1650fps. The .45 ACP, on the other hand, pushes 185 grain bullets at 100-1050fps, 200gr at 900-950fps, 230gr at 850-900fps. The high-power +P loads add +50-100fps to those velocities. Thus it would be more accurate to say that .22 bullet often weigh around 1/6th of .45 bullets, and travel at around 1.2x - 1.5x the velocity. The most kinetic energy you'll get out of a .22 LR is ~200 ft-lbs, more likely 150 ft-lbs. The .45 ACP can get up to around 500 ft-lbs, with most loadings between 350 and 450 ft-lbs. The real difference between the two, however, is that the .45 ACP causes a wound cavity more than twice the diameter of the .22 LR, and often a deeper one as well. .22 LR HP vs .45 ACP HP. Shooting someone in the arm, much less in the hand, with a pistol is incredibly unlikely to stop anyone. The force concetrated on whatever part of a human you hit with the pistol will be significantly lower than the force of recoil concentrated on the shooter's hands. Since the shooter isn't flying all over the place shooting the damn thing, it will not knock a human down. You can test this by standing, relaxed, and firing a gun placed on your chest -- if the recoil doesn't knock you down, the force of the impact on the enemy sure as hell won't. And if the target is actually running at you, the chances of that happening are even worse. People just don't magically drop when you hit them. Humans can be spiteful bastards, unless you mess up their brain or spine. Suggested reading.
APDS is Armor Piercing Discarding Sabot. This type of ammunition does generally not have separate jacket -- it has a plastic "sleeve" which is separated as the round exits the barrel, leaving only a penetrator, usually of tungsten carbide in small arms and light cannons these days. "Cop killer" rounds are BS. I'm sure someone can post a link to an article which deals with the particular myth extensively. Take my word on it though: none of the ammunition types usually called "cop killers" actually function as armor piercing. And don't get me started on that teflon-coating bullshit.
Again, I have no clue where you are getting this from. On some armor piercing bullet designs there is a jacket that is (mostly) separated upon hitting something hard. However, when this jacket is removed, the penetrating core makes an even smaller hole, since you just dropped the diameter of the bullet. In some cases, the jacket might even slightly deform on hitting human tissue, allowing for a slightly larger wound cavity against unarmored targets.
That knockdown is usually the result of either hitting close enough to the spine to do permanent damage to it, or the result of pressure waves that the shape of the thorax/rib cage of most quadraped mammals reflect/intensify in a way that causes significant pressure on the spine and constricting it. Whether and how quickly you kill the deer has, again, almost exclusively got to do with the size of the permanent wound cavity and where you place it in the animal. A .243 Winchester SP is likely to be far more lethal against deer than, say, the .30-06 M2 Armor Piercing cartridge, even if the latter has a lot more kinetic energy.
I have no idea how you concluded this from the above, nor is there anything supporting this from RL. .50 BMG Saboted Light Armor Piercing ammunition is specifically designed to be used against armored vehicles, as is .50 BMG Mk 211 Mod 0 API which has a subcaliber tungsten carbide penetrator. In fact, nearly all armor piercing small arms ammunition designs in the military exist because of their capability to penetrate light vehicle armor -- this goes for the M995 5.56x45mm assault rifle rounds, the M993 7.62x51mm machine gun (/sniper rifle) rounds, M903 .50 BMG HMG rounds as well as the Mk 211 Mod 0 .50 BMG HMG/sniper rifle rounds. |
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Dec 8 2004, 08:28 PM
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#22
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
The whole purpose of using FMJ rounds in modern assault rifles is to injure and not kill the enemy. A dead enemy soldier is left laying on the field til the fighting is done and = 1 less man fighting. An injured soldier requires 2-3 other guys to drag him to safty during the fighting and = 3-4 less men fighting.
U Fester- first off "knock down power" with small arms is a myth, and second i'm not sure what point your trying to make. the whole crux of this (ongoing) debate is the fact that a high energy/low def-frag round will readily pass through an unarmored target and all that spiffy energy will go right out the other side with the round. The problem here (in general) is that the situation is not so black and white as the rules make it (in the absences of a hit-location system in SR). An APDS round should be less effective against non-vital soft tissue, but equally effective against bone mass or vital organs. Personally I think this problem could have been handled quite elegantly with the old staging rules from SR1. You simply give the weapon with APDS rounds a staging of 1 (as in 9M1 for HP instead of the standard 9M2). Then the target has an easier time resisting (its a tiny little hole after all) and at the same time the amount of damage done is based more on the shooter's net successes (the accuracy of the shot and the chances that the shooter will hit some vital organ or bone mass). But unfortunatly FASA deemed this system to complicated for the average SR player (or did they mean DnD player?) and the rest, as they say, is history. |
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Dec 8 2004, 08:28 PM
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#23
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
Movie physics again. Getting shot in the chest with a shotgun does not throw you through the air. Getting a hole in you does not force you to topple onto the floor. Shock does that. If you shoot someone in the hand with a .22, there will be a little hole, some pain, and a bit of bleeding. A .45, there will be a big hole, likely at least one broken bone, severed tendons, large amounts of bleeding, and lots of pain. That is why they will fall down, shock. Not because the bullet pushes them down, nor because it has lots of energy. |
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Dec 8 2004, 09:13 PM
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#24
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
now i may be wrong, but i thought "cop killer" rounds were actually the oppiste to AP/APDS rounds, in that they were designed to fastly expand once impact was made and the bullt was in the body, causing a decent hole at entry, and a rather sickening sized one where it exits the body...
i could be wrong, but thats how i thought bullets like the "rhino" where supposed to work... |
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Dec 8 2004, 09:28 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
You mean something I saw in a Leathal Weapon movies wasn't scientifically accurate? Perish the thought! My group knocked the damage code for APDS down one level, to a minimum of L. In the long run, it made no real difference. APDS still kicks all the ass. |
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