White Wolf and Nancy. A. Collins sue Sony Pictures Options

[Hot Wheels]

Does anyone have a link to the suit so we can judge the 60 points where they intersect? I mean if they have "13 vampires clans in 2 waring sects", that's a lot more damning than , "cute, goth vampires in leather."

[Adam]

Indeed I do: http://www.talkinabout.com/random/whitewol...f.complaint.pdf

Please don't pass this link around on boards other than DSF; I'd like to avoid thousands of people downloading from the server. I'll likely be removing the file within a week, so save it to your hard drive if you want to keep it.

[Right click, save as, open in Acrobat Reader]

[Boondocker]

That's a whole lot of points. Most of them, the majority, in fact, seem to be general similarities that don't hold up well, like the ones that are staples of vampiric/werewolfian lore, like "In the World of Darkness, vampires can disappear from view, in Underworld, vampires can disappear from view" (paraphrased) that could apply to any film about vampires and/or werewolves. The rest seem more specific. All in all, it makes it sound like WW has a case, but who knows how the courts will decide. After all, as a few people have said, "You cain't prove nothin'."

Anyway, thanks for posting that, Adam.

[Ancient History]

Well, that was enlightening. Anyone with more than a passing knowledge of Vampire and Werewolf can spot the most obvious half-truths and white lies ther, but I admit there's some damning points...especially, the terminology and the video game (I mean, really. They could at least have changed the title. Sony's getting flaky).

Thank you Adam-san.

Sad thing is, this sounds like a good movie.

[Sommers]

All right, I read through that and it has to be some of the weakest #$%# I have ever read in a lawsuit. Vampires in both worlds have the strength of 10 men? How about in Dracula? Vampires in both worlds are described as alien? You mean the things that feed on blood and live 500 years aren't normal? Werewolves and vampires are enemies is the exclusive domain of White Wolf? Maybe Sony should buy the rights to the old "Dracula vs. Werewolf" movie from the 50's and sue Whitewolf for copyright infringement. Hell, WOTC could probably sue them for a lot of the things they put in that lawsuit.

Hopefully the judge will toss this thing out real quick and maybe WW can get back to making a game people want to buy. Not that I've seen that a lot around here.

[Ancient History]

Universal would never sell the classic "Dracula Vs. The Wolf-Man."

I wonder if White Wolf is trying for a settlement out of court to get a percentage of the take?

[Talondel]

[Buzzed]

You cant trademark an idea, you have to trademark spacific details. Anyone can make a movie about vampires and warewolfs attacking eachother. They wont win.

[Adam]

Well, it's a good thing that this is a copyright not trademark suit, then.

I hate to be snarky, but you probably shouldn't be discussing legal issues - even as a layperson - if you don't know the difference between the two. Especially as it's clearly noted in both the original press release and the full filing [both of which I posted to this thread] that it's a copyright infrigement suit.

[Greyfoxx]

White Wolf probably has a chance.

Its like making an exact mickey mouse character and then renaming it. Well, that's my point of view.

[Talondel]

I wonder if White Wolf realizes that they just assured the fact that every V;tM and W;tA fan -- everywhere -- is going to go see this movie. I'm sure most of them were interested in viewing it before (because, be honest, it looks like a decently fun no-brainer action flick with reasonable effects)... now they all plan on going, in order to see "how Sony ripped us off."

[Kanada Ten]

[SeekerJST]

For those who don't want to read through the entire report here are the main points of the complaint:

55: In the World of Darkness, Vampires have the ability to dissapear from view. In Underworld, vampires repeatedly vanish from view.

56: In the World of Darkness, some vampires are capable of amazing speed. In Underworld, some vampires move with amazing speed.

57: In the World of Darkness, vampires "have the strength of ten men." In Underworld, vampires "have the strength of ten men"

58: In the World of Darkness, vampires are divided by age distinctions, and old vampires are more powerful and able to rule over younger vampires. In Underworld, vampires are divided by age distinctions, and older vampires are more powerful and able to rule over younger vampires.

59: In the World of Darkness, the more ancient and powerful vampires are referred to as Elders. In Underworld, the more ancient and powerful vampires are referred to as Elders.

60: In the World of Darkness, vampires, especially Elders, are able to go into a state where they do not rise as normal, but stay alive in an extended sleep or hibernation. In Underworld, the Elders are in a hibernation state where they do not rise as normal, but stay alive in an extended sleep.

61: In the World of Darkness, vampires in extended sleep lose blood and become more withered and mummified, and return to normal as they feed. In Underworld, Viktor (a vampire Elder) awakens from extended sleep appearing withered and mummified, and returns to normal the more he feeds on blood.

62: In the World of Darkness, a vampire in hibernation remains that way until a vampire provides them with blood. In Underworld, Selene (the main character) rouses Viktor from hibernation using her own blood, just as another Elder (Amelia) was supposed to do.

63: In the world of Darkness, even when in hibernation or when recently rouse, elder vampires command a great power and control. In Underworld, Viktor, the Elder Vampire, "Radiates absolute power and control" even when recently roused.

64: In the World of Darkness, vampires are described as "alien". In Underworld, vampires are described as "alien."

65: In the World of Darkness, some vampire groups ("Sabbat") refer to themselves as Covens, and divide into Old World and New World Covens. In Underworld, the vampires divide into Old World and New World Covens.

66: In the World of Darkness, many North African or Middle Eastern vampires belong to a clan of assassins and warriors (called "Assamites"). In the Underworld movie trailer, Kahn, the leader of the Death Dealers, a group of assassins and warriors, appears to be of Northern African or Middle Eastern descent.

67: In the World of Darkness, vampires sometimes call each other "Vee," short for vampire. In Underworld, there is a character named Vee.

68: In the World of Darkness, vampires are organized into Bloodlines. In Underworld, vampires are organized into Bloodlines.

69: In the World of Darkness, vampire and werewolf societies hide their existence from human society (referred to as "The Masquerade"). In Underworld, human beings are unaware of the existence of vampire and werewolf societies.

70: In the World of Darkness, there is a power struggle between the Elder vampires and groups of younger vampires (referred to as "Jyhad") In Underworld, there is a power struggle between the Elder vampires and groups of younger vampires.

71: In the World of Darkness, the history of the vampires is written in an ancient text. In Underworld, the history of the vampires is written in ancient texts.

72: In the World of Darkness, vampires wrote their histories in an ancient alphabet indecipherable to humans. In underworld, "The ancient text is tiny, indecipherable, not unlike alien chicken-scratch."

73: In the World of Darkness, vampires and werewolves have been at war for as long as any of them can remember. In Underworld, vampires and werewolves have been at war for over 1000 years.

74: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires are depicted as natural enemies. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires are depicted as natural enemies.

75: In the World of Darkness, Lucita, a female vampire, is an excellent assassin and warrior. - "a one-woman death squad." In Underworld, Selene, a female vampires, is an excellent assassin and warrior - "a master death dealer."

76: In the World of Darkness, Lucita is rebellious and headstrong and this leads to a growing schism between her and her powerful sire. In Underworld, Selene is rebellious and headstrong, and this leads to a growing schism between her and her powerful sire.

77: In the World of Darkness, the vampires are ruled by a governing body. In Underworld, the vampires are ruled by a governing body.

78: In the World of Darkness, there is a paramilitary group of vampires, the Black hand, who protect the other vampires and fight the werewolf threat. in Underworld, there is a paramilitary group of vampires, the Death Dealers, who protect the other vampires and fight the werewolf threat.

79: In the World of Darkness, a werewolf/vampire hybrid is called an "Abomination." IN Underworld, a werewolf/vampire hybrid is called an "Abomination."

80: In the World of Darkness, most werewolf/vampire hybrids do not survive the transformation; they die in the process. In Underworld, no werewolf/vampire hybrid before Michael ever survived.

81: In the World of Darkness, certain vampires are able to get pregnant. In Underworld, at least one vampire is able to get pregnant.

82: In the World of Darkness, werewolves are able to remember scenes from the lives of their ancestors. In Underworld, werewolves are able to remember scenes from the lives of their ancestors (genetic memory)

83: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives.

84: In the World of Darkness, the Vampires created Silver Nitrate bullets specifically for fighting Werewolves. In Underworld, the vampires created silver nitrated bullets specifically for fighting werewolves.

85: In the World of Darkness, the background setting is very dark, described as gothic/punk. In Underworld, the background setting is very dark, with a combination of gothic and punk attire, settings, and people.

86: In the World of Darkness, there exists a clan of aristocratic, ruling vampires (known as "Ventrue".) In Underworld, the ruling vampires are aristocratic, from noble houses, living in an elegant Victorian mansion.

87: In the World of Darkness, there exists a clan of vampires who are only concerned with beauty - sensualists who search for pleasure (known as "Toreador") In Underworld, there are vampires concerened with beauty - sensualists who search for pleasure.

88: In the World of Darkness, multiple types of vampires in different clans interact with each other under one leader. In Underworld, multiple types of vampires interact with each other under one leader.

89: In the World of Darkness, vampires cast reflections. In Underwood, vampires cast reflections.

90: In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires. In Underworld, the werewolves do not use wood to kill vampires, nor mention it as an option.

91: In the World of Darkness, most vampires cannot change into other shapes, like bats or mist, unless they are very old and powerful. In Underworld, no vampires change into other forms, but the last remaining Elder is hanging upside down in his crypt and is described as bat-like.

92: In the World of Darkness, a vampire turns a non-vampire into a vampire by "embracing" his victim. In Underworld, Selene turns Michael into a vampire by "embracing" him.

93: In the World of Darkness, a vampire can "embrace" a werewolf. In Underworld, Selene embraces Michael (a werewolf).

94: In the World of Darkness, when a werewolf is embraced (assuming he survived), an Abomination is created who can dominate all non-abomination characters with his power and versatility. In Underworld, by embracing Michael, Selene creates an Abomination who dominates all non-abomination characters in the movie with his power and versatility.

95: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires can injure or kill each other with their teeth and claws. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires can injure or kill each other with their teeth and claws.

96: In the World of Darkness, werewolves are able to change their form at will (I.e., not just during a full moon). In Underworld, werewolves are able to change their form at will. (i.e., not just during a full moon.)

97: In the World of Darkness, silver weapons harm werewolves, in Underworld, silver weapons harm werewolves.

98: In the World of Darkness, werewolves do battle in their half-wolf/half-man form. In Underworld, werewolves do battle in their half-wolf/half-man form.

99: In the World of Darkness, the wolf-man form is considerably bigger than the werewolf's human form. In Underworld, the wolf-man form is considerably bigger than the werewolf's human form.

100: In The Love of Monsters, a werewolf and a vampire fall in love. In Underworld, a werewolf and a vampire fall in love.

101: In The Love of Monsters, the vampire realizes that even though there is a war between the species, he does not want to kill this werewolf. In Underworld, the vampire realizes that even though there is a war between the species, she does not want to kill this werewolf.

102: In The Love Of Monsters, Ruhl, the sire of the vampire, has gone into torpor (a deathlike sleep akin to suspended animation) and is awakened to find out about the relationship. In Underworld, Viktor, Selene's sire, has gone into torpor (a deathlike sleep or suspended animation) and is awakened to find out about her relationship with michael.

103: In The Love Of Monsters, once awakened, Ruhl, the elder vampire, is furious about the relationship between the vampire Pembroke and the werewolf Sian. In Underworld, once awakened, Viktor, the elder vampire, is furious about the relationship between the vampire Selene and the werewolf Michael.

104: In The Love of Monsters, Ruhl and the Inner Circle declare the relationship between Pembroke and Sian to be treason and sentence the lovers to death. In Underworld, Viktor "arrests" Selene until the Council can convene; the relationship is a capital offense and the punishement will likely be death. A story is told of a previous relationship between a vampire (Sonja) and werewolf (Lucian) who were both sentenced to death by Viktor and the Elders for their relationship.

105: In the Love of Monsters, the relationship between Pembroke and Sian makes the lovers outcasts from vampire society. In Underworld, the relationship between Selen and Michael makes the lovers outcasts from vampire society.

106: In The Love of Monsters, because they have broken the taboo concerning vampires and werewolves, Pembroke and Sian find themselves on the run from vampires and werewolves. In Underworld, because she has broken the taboo concerning vampires and werewolves, Selene finds herself on the run from her own people as well as the werewolves.

107: In The Love of Monsters, a werewolf becomes pregnant by a vampire and gives birth to hybrid offspring. In Underworld, a vampire becomes pregnant by a werewolf, and it believed that the union will produce hybrid offspring.

108: In The Love of Monsters, a werewolf elder, and the mother of the birthing werewolf, kills the hybrid offspring because they are "abominations." In underworld, Viktor (Sonja's father) kills Sonja and her unborn offspring of the werewolf Lucian because their offspring are "abominations."

109: In the Love of Monsters, the vampire protagonist Pembroke is a respected and powerful member of an elaborate secret vampire society referred to as "The Camarilla". In Underwold, the vampire protagonist Selne is a respected and powerful member of the secret vampire society referred to as "The New World Coven."

110: In The Love Of Monsters, the vampire protagonist Pembroke has a father-son relationship with the vampire Elder Ruhl, who was responsible for making him a vampire. In Underworld, the vampire protagonists Selene has a father-daughter relationship with the vampire Elder Viktor, who was responsible for making her a vampire.

111: In the Love of Monsters, the vampire protagonist Pembroke misses the company of his hibernating father figure, Ruhl. In Underworld, the vampire protagonist Selene is seen pining for her hibernating father figure, Viktor.

112: In the Love of Monsters, the vampire protagonist Pembroke reveals that he willingly became a vampire. In Underworld, the vampire protagonists Selene reveals that she willingly became a vampire.

113: In The Love of Monsters, the vampire Elder Lord Peale explains how a vampire-werewolf hybrid would be dangerous to both species. In Underwolf, the vampire Elder Viktor explains how a vampire-werewolf hybrid would be dangerous to both species.

114: In The Love of Monsters, Sian and her children are killed by both both vampires and werewolves, while her vampire lover is forced to watch her and his newborn children die. In Underworld, Sonja is killed by her fellow vampires while her werewolf lover is forced to watch her and his unborn child die.

115: in The Love of Monsters, the offending vampire is killed by sunlight. In Underworld, the original offending vampire (Sonja) is killed by sunlight.

116: In The Love of Monsters, vampires are referred to as "Bloods." In Underworld, werewolves refer to vampires as "Bloods."

[TheBovrilMonkey]

Having never played Vampire or Werewolf, or seen or heard anything about this film except reading this thread, I have to say it'll be absurd if White Wolf win.

There may be a few ideas 'borrowed' by the film, but trying to use stuff like this:

[Buzzed]

These are the points that were not worth mentioning, Now im mentioning them. Oh well sue me.

55: In the World of Darkness, Vampires have the ability to dissapear from view. In Underworld, vampires repeatedly vanish from view.

56: In the World of Darkness, some vampires are capable of amazing speed. In Underworld, some vampires move with amazing speed.

57: In the World of Darkness, vampires "have the strength of ten men." In Underworld, vampires "have the strength of ten men"

58: In the World of Darkness, vampires are divided by age distinctions, and old vampires are more powerful and able to rule over younger vampires. In Underworld, vampires are divided by age distinctions, and older vampires are more powerful and able to rule over younger vampires.

59: In the World of Darkness, the more ancient and powerful vampires are referred to as Elders. In Underworld, the more ancient and powerful vampires are referred to as Elders.

61: In the World of Darkness, vampires in extended sleep lose blood and become more withered and mummified, and return to normal as they feed. In Underworld, Viktor (a vampire Elder) awakens from extended sleep appearing withered and mummified, and returns to normal the more he feeds on blood.

68: In the World of Darkness, vampires are organized into Bloodlines. In Underworld, vampires are organized into Bloodlines.

69: In the World of Darkness, vampire and werewolf societies hide their existence from human society (referred to as "The Masquerade"). In Underworld, human beings are unaware of the existence of vampire and werewolf societies.

70: In the World of Darkness, there is a power struggle between the Elder vampires and groups of younger vampires (referred to as "Jyhad") In Underworld, there is a power struggle between the Elder vampires and groups of younger vampires.

71: In the World of Darkness, the history of the vampires is written in an ancient text. In Underworld, the history of the vampires is written in ancient texts.

75: In the World of Darkness, Lucita, a female vampire, is an excellent assassin and warrior. - "a one-woman death squad." In Underworld, Selene, a female vampires, is an excellent assassin and warrior - "a master death dealer."

77: In the World of Darkness, the vampires are ruled by a governing body. In Underworld, the vampires are ruled by a governing body.

83: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires fight with human weapons, such as pistols and knives.

84: In the World of Darkness, the Vampires created Silver Nitrate bullets specifically for fighting Werewolves. In Underworld, the vampires created silver nitrated bullets specifically for fighting werewolves.

85: In the World of Darkness, the background setting is very dark, described as gothic/punk. In Underworld, the background setting is very dark, with a combination of gothic and punk attire, settings, and people.

90: In the World of Darkness, wood does not kill vampires. In Underworld, the werewolves do not use wood to kill vampires, nor mention it as an option.

91: In the World of Darkness, most vampires cannot change into other shapes, like bats or mist, unless they are very old and powerful. In Underworld, no vampires change into other forms, but the last remaining Elder is hanging upside down in his crypt and is described as bat-like.

92: In the World of Darkness, a vampire turns a non-vampire into a vampire by "embracing" his victim. In Underworld, Selene turns Michael into a vampire by "embracing" him.

95: In the World of Darkness, werewolves and vampires can injure or kill each other with their teeth and claws. In Underworld, werewolves and vampires can injure or kill each other with their teeth and claws.

97: In the World of Darkness, silver weapons harm werewolves, in Underworld, silver weapons harm werewolves.

98: In the World of Darkness, werewolves do battle in their half-wolf/half-man form. In Underworld, werewolves do battle in their half-wolf/half-man form.

99: In the World of Darkness, the wolf-man form is considerably bigger than the werewolf's human form. In Underworld, the wolf-man form is considerably bigger than the werewolf's human form.

115: in The Love of Monsters, the offending vampire is killed by sunlight. In Underworld, the original offending vampire (Sonja) is killed by sunlight.


Hell. They might as well sue the guy who wrote the Blade comics or vise versa. I mean come on, most of these things are ideas that have been done before. Brom Stoker could have been a millionaire with lawsuits alone! This is rediculious.

[Ronin Soul]

Thanks for the link Adam.

Upon reading it, I'm at the conclusion that it seems kind of absurd. A lot of the complaints were not pioneered by White Wolf or even particularly notable parts of the world (Vampires calling each other "Vee"... I haven't seen that. Though it does seem kinda obvious).

Northern African or Middle Eastern vampires being assassins and warriors? Shock horror! Really, that seems an obvious cultural development considering the culture of that area. Hell the original Assassins started it. And they were around in the 12th Century, long before White Wolf.

Human beings being unaware of vampires and werewolves? Most story universes involving vampires and werewolves are like that. It increases the horror element of the story.

Vampires getting pregnant... started in Eastern Europe in the middle ages with the legends of the Dhampyr. And besides, I thought (with the exception of 14th generation vampires), vampires getting pregnant was a major no-no in WoD.

A lot of the weapon stuff seems silly. Werewolves and Vees (whoops, WW don't sue me!) fighting each other with modern weapons seems kinda normal for a *modern* setting. And teeth and claws, well werewolves do have very big teeth and claws.

I know it sounds like I'm just picking and choosing, but an initial read through does make this sound a little absurd.

They share similiarities which seem to me, the most obvious path for such creatures. Just because White Wolf made serious money out of it first, does it mean that no one else can ever have Werewolves vulnerable to silver?
Or vampires in a modern setting using modern weapons?

Maybe I'm missing something but at first glance this just seems absurd and really takes down my respect of White Wolf (although I don't play their games for WoD. I play 'em for Exalted!)

[Teknobabel]

Well if you read the entire complaint, I think it's clear that WW intended this a publicity stunt that may result in a flipping great wodge of cash, to ask for a injunction a few weeks before the opening is a bit arrogant, because if WW get's the injunction then Sony has to get permission to release the film, or deal with WW and pay them off, either way isn't a entirely happy situation for Sony to be in.

WW is hoping that the time frame pressure will convince Sony to make an offer.

[Boondocker]

Yes, each item taken in turn seems a little absurd, but I think WW is relying on the number of similarities to prove infringement. Anyway, it will be interesting to see how it turns out regardless.

[Glyph]

HARLEQUIN TO SUE WHITE WOLF:

8:19 PM ET September 6, 2003
In a prepared statement, the immortal elf known as Harlequin announced that he will be suing White Wolf, Inc. and Nancy A. Collins for copyright infringement. He alleges that Collins' 1994 story Love of Monsters, published by White Wolf, Inc., is actually plagiarized from the popular play Romeo and Juliet, which he penned under the psuedonym William Shakespeare. A spokesman for White Wolf was indignant at the lawsuit. "Two star-crossed lovers who have to deal with the disapproval of their duelling families. Like that hasn't been done before. This whole thing is just a frivolous lawsuit." Harlequin, who is also suing Boeing and several other aircraft manufacturers for using ideas that were patented by him under the name Leonardo da Vinci, could not be reached for further comment.

[Atrox]

Thanks for the link, Adam.

Some of the similarities are odd. Then again, two friends to whom I showed the trailer last night didn't instantly think White Wolf, despite being VtM players for several years. If intellectual copyright is about confusing the two things, the case doesn't seem that good.

Has anyone noticed the timing on this? Underworld is slated for release on 19/SEP/2003. That doesn't leave much time for Sony to settle the case one way or another. Good strategy.

:D Good one, Glyph. Though Harlequin wasn't Leonardo, methinks. :D

[otomik]

sure white wolf contributed to the vampire mythos but now it looks like they want to claim the whole damn thing. Blade stole a lot of ideas from white wolf too, get over it. all contributions to the vampire mythos should be filed under the same public domain bram stoker's are.

white wolf cashed in on a general vampire craze and they just happen to write books that formally write down vampire lore so they can lay claim to stuff that was generally floating in the air. if white wolf wins then chalres de lint, william gibson or the creators of robocop should sue for shadowrun (matrix, cops owned by corporation, flechette machine pistols like AVS, the ares predator looks like the robocop gun, the ruger thunderbolt acts like the robocop gun, magic using native americas as well as militaristic japanese conquer america!, etc).

Charles De Lint sue Wizkids/FanPro!

but they're not cuz delint, gibson and robocop people are generally cool and realize that ideas don't come out of a vacuum.

[Snow_Fox]

Buzzed thanks. I couldn't download Adam's post. Some of the points look valid, some aren't. The idea of calling older vampires "Elders." My goodness what else do you respectfully call an older person? The options are limited.

One of the weakest was "have the strength of 10 men" Only in WW if you take the various disiplines.

[Ancient History]

Okay guys, you're focusing on the little white lies and not the half-truths and Big Lies. Consider where they compare Selene and Lucita, and then where they compare the Ventrue and Toreador to the "aristocratic" and "sensuous" vampires. Fuck me, they even compared the "death dealers to both the Black Hand and the Assamites!

Oh, and you've got to love that little "vampires can't be killed by wood, none of the werewolves try to kill the vampires by wood." Beautiful. Proof by lack of evidence, and it's not even good evidence because you could stake a vampire and then theoretically beat it to death with a tree branch.

[Adam]

[Snow_Fox]

sorry. I'm not terribly technically adept. I clicked on the link. Got the little pannel "do you want to download" etc clicked open and after 3 minutes got a sign that said the computer couldn't read it.