So what do people think of CFS?, I hate it. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Standard Switch to: Linear+

[Cynic project]

Now, I know that a lot of what shadowrun has put into CFS is true. We have a lot of people who are right wing and act a lot like the way people in CFS act. But those people are a shrinking minority, and rarely see eye to eye within their own ranks. They also are people who tend not to live in the major cities.

San fran/Bay area. Boy was that a kick in the gut. Then Saito...Well let's just leave it at this, if there the number of troops in that they say in YotC then you have roughly 25,000 troops. Toping off at 30,000. If I am right there are more than that many national gourd in said area in times of peace.

Also I think that the idea od giving up LA for what ever reason is just well stupid. No one would willing give up a city that it make more money than most countries.

And the reason that the CSF has a weak Army is just laughable. Sorry we are in the midle of two hostile nations who have top of line militaries. Let's spend BILLIONS of dollars on basically nothing. I mean youw ould have to be so crupt that you would make Nero look good.

[Mercer]

I don't live in California and I've only visited it twice (three times if you count being stationed at 29 Palms for the better part of a month), so I treat it-- as most of the world does-- as a fictional place. I wasn't wild about how the NAGNA handled Atlanta (Futurama did a much better job of updating it, but no matter).

There were things I liked about CFS and things I didn't, but since I'm not familiar with California, I've never been able to pinpoint the books inconsistencies. Its been a few years since I've read through it in any detail, but this is what stands out in my memory.

Overall, in terms of plot hooks, it was okay. Redding, San Fran, LA all had lots of tie ins for runs (which is my main yardstick for a sb, how usuable it is in a game). Even though I'm the one that bought and read CFS, aside from a one-shot in Northern California the only other time we ran there was a module another GM ran for us in San Fran. (It was a run where the shaman and I developed rules for an alternate Skeet game using levitated Sec Guards as clay pigeons. Good times.) So, considering that I've used the book in two sessions in the past seven or so years, maybe it suffers a little by that yardstick. I did come up with a module that was basically the group chasing a lost computer programmer the length and breadth of the CFS, with an adventure in every chapter, but I never ran it.

I was never wild about the mutant critter table in the back of the book. Where I come from, exposure to radiation is generally harmful, and the idea that people or animals are deriving super powers from it seems more suited to comic books than my SR game. Beyond toxic shamans or spirits, having animals mutate in giant, monstrous versions of themselves is a little to 1950's B-Movie crappy. Why not have a mutation table where all your hair falls out and then you die?

The Anasazi (sp?) chapter never quite lit me on fire either. I didn't see where they were going with it. A lost tribe mysteriously reappears. All in all it looked like a place to run your Mad Max themed SRs. Or The Hills Have Eyes. In any event, it seemed like another step towards a "movie reality", which leaves me a little cold.

San Francisco. Here's my main problem with SF. I never liked them writing the Japanese as the new Nazis. It just seems in poor taste to pick a nation and make it evil. I mean, its supposed to be cyberpunk, aren't all nations and corporations hit with the same stick? And isn't there a better, more creative, less blatantly racist way of presenting the situation than, "Here's the Japanese, being evil, as they are want to do"? I have the same problem with the way the Azzies are frequently handled. It just seems like lazy plotting.

[mfb]

i dunno. yeah, the Japanese are often presented as 'the bad guys' in SR, but that's one of those leftovers from the 80s. think of it as cultural roots--and, hey, look at what they're doing with Japan now. it's not Japan that's the bad guys, now, it's Saito and the megacorps that back him. it's not even all of Saito's soldiers, either--he sunk two troop ships that tried to leave; you have to wonder how many others were intimidated into staying by that act.

and, more than that, it was never just the Japanese that were racist bastards in CFS. SF/Sacramento and Chico-Oroville were presented as racists bastard bastions, in the CFS SB.

[Mercer]

I don't disagree with you, and I don't think the game designers agenda was inherently racist. I'm just saying that if you present Chico-Oroville as a place that has some racists, and then Redding as a place that has some racists, and then Japan as one big evil country, it comes off as demonization (even if it wasn't what the writers were necessarily intending). Its like saying in California, people are bad because they are racist, but the Japanese are racist because they are bad.

Mainly, the use of the Azzies or the Japanese comes off as a sort of, "Who's the Bad Guys?", in much the same way the Indians were treated in early cowboy movies. Melodrama needs heavies, the Rebellion needs the Empire, Indiana Jones needs Nazis (Temple of Doom, anyone?). Its the type of things that works in more simplistic stories, black and white, good and evil and so on; but in a real world context (allowing that SR is "real world", which is a stretch, but hopefully it has more in common with our world than it does with say, Lucasfilm's universe) it just comes off a propaganda.

Also, I'll be honest with you, I never bought YotC, so I only have a vague notion of who Saito is (a notion gathered almost entirely from things people have said about him here on this board. He's in charge of San Fran, he's the Japanese Hitler and he's sunk two troop transports). It's possible they updated things in YotC and fixed some of the stuff I had a problem with, but not having read it I can't say. I'm just dealing with the way it was presented in CFS, since thats the last SB I've read that dealt with the Japanese.

[FlakJacket]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

The Anasazi in CFS are a pathetic bunch of nomad poseurs, and I'm sure Pueblo military soldiers don't have any qualms about killing people who are denigrating the their ancestors' names.

Also, Temple of Doom was the only one of the three without Nazis.

One last thing for now-- CFS has been screwed up since SR1 and NAGNA, but it's funny how CFS opened with, "the neo-As got some stuff wrong" and continued to propogate a tremendous amount of nonsense over 160ish pages.

Whatever the perspective of the Japanese was (and, like I wrote elsewhere, the SR universe was developed in the mid-80s when FASA was competing with R. Tal to put out a "cyberpunk" RPG, and SR1 reflects the politics of that time), the interesting thing is that in California, the place to be was Los Angeles--specifically for the Japanese. They engaged in many of their real estate booms in the southland because it was a cool place to have property, it was a lot cheaper than downtown SF, and they could just throw money into Century City as easily as Downtown (boy, did they) or the Miracle Mile and get the same effect. The one thing the Bay Area has over L.A. that the Japanese would want was Silicon Valley, which is probably why they were willing to send Marines to an area already dominated by Ares Macrotech. But they didn't try to take over Silicon Valley or gentrify Oakland or some other area--they took over a city with a long-standing culture, rife with politics and ethnicities that don't have much historical love with Japan. Riiiiight. At least L.A. would be used to them, and it's a more important economy to ensure.

OTOH, the L.A. MSA sprawl is as large as a good chunk of Japan itself, and the areas they'd be most interested in already could afford good security for themselves.

But in the context of the state cutting ties with L.A. (which is just preposterous for the reasons given) makes L.A. even more inviting because canon L.A. needed the money and guns (but had the lawyers. ;-))

L.A. itself, is also built on a couple of false premises. One is ignoring the fact that it is not only one of (if not) the most diverse sprawl(s) in the world, but those different cultures do intermingle. It's not a feudal region of city-states, and the only parts of the city that are walled up and fenced are north of the 10. It makes no sense to do something so drastic and stupid as wall up El Infierno (which is made up of several small cities and large neighborhoods). I hate to break it to whoever wrote the book, but the gangs don't roam. It defeats the purpose of being territorial.

I mean, the concept is not without its RL supporters.

[Mercer]

I know, my point was that without Nazis to fight, you end up with Temple of Doom. Its just a horrible movie. Also, I find it weird that audiences will buy magical mumbo-jumbo as long as its based in Christian theology, but if it comes from some other source then its clearly ludicrous. Anyway, this is neither here nor there.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Ah. I wasn't sure, so I erred... badly.

[Cray74]

[Adarael]

Okay, here's my take on the subject. Now, just to set the stage...

California's a wee bit of a powerhouse when it comes to global economy and politics. Regardless of what anyone says about the state being 'just a state', California wavers between being the 5th largest economy in the world (September, 2004, by The Economist's reconing) and 7th largest in the world (the more commonly quoted figure (I've never heard anything smaller than that). California produces a little more than 65% of the food eaten in the United States, due to politics and government subsidies to the 'bread bowl' states. With an estimated population of about 38,500,000 (about 12-13% of the total US population), the state isn't exactly a slouch when it comes to size. With these in mind, I think it's extremely feasible to say that California could be its' own nation.

Now, what are my problems?

-California as a nation of slackers
One of the most common misconceptions about California seems to be that we're all a bunch of permissive jackasses unable to stand up for ourselves, because we all want to get along. Sure, we do want to all get along. But look at history - the civil rights movement, the Weathermen, the 1960s. Californians know how to fight for what they believe in, because the state at large generally marches to a different beat than midlands USA. One of the most common threads I've heard lately from people of widely varying ethnicities and beliefs is that if the current US administration tries to mess with our state, screw 'em. We won't listen.
Which is what this boils down to. Californians DO like to get along. We don't like to pick up guns like good ol' boys and rebels. But jesus, one of the most cardinal sins a visitor can commit in this state is insulting it. Because then NONE of us like you. We tend to be egotistical and regard California as generally... better... than other places.

-California's Perpetually Weak Military: The Tir Tairngire Invasion, The PCC, and Saito.
One of the problems California seems perpetually plagued by in Shadowrun is a military that's totally unable to do anything right. While I have nothing against saying 'CFS's military could be average', there are certain things that irk me about the way California's military is handled.
First: Aztlan took over San Diego with apparently no trouble. For those of you unaware, San Diego is one of the *largest military complexes in the world*. It is THE port for the US Navy, and is one of the major bases for all other branches of the US army. Regardless of if the UCAS cared about California at the time, I can see *no* way Aztlan could have just rolled over that city. That would be like suggesting Chechen rebels just 'borrowed' St. Petersburg, or France happened to snag Bonn while passing through. Ain't gonna happen, no way.
Second: The Tir Tairngire invasion. The Tir rolled over California, pretty much without incident until Hestaby got involved. Now, I know what you're gonna say - Immortal Elves, planning for decades or centuries, backing from the NAN, et cetera. While that's all well and good, how did Tir Tairngire manage to train their army in all that ordinance, equipment and tactics in the space of so short a time? MORE importantly, if they managed to do so well in training, why did California FORGET all of that training in so short a time?
Third: The PCC? Well, that doesn't bother me too much, honestly. LA being taken by the PCC makes sense, *given the current climate of the nation*. While I find it very hard to believe that the train of events leading up to the PCC's invasion is unlikely, the actual invasion is logical. I just find it odd that so large an area could be taken by the PCC so quickly, and with so little resistance.
Fourth: Saito. Saito, Saito, Saito. The topic has been done to death - you all know my feelings on it. Unless he's getting at least 50% of his power and maintenence from megacorps, it's utterly ridiculous.

-The Japanacorp takeover
One part of this setup makes sense - the Japanese presence in the state. In the Bay Area, the average population makeup is about 49.2% white, and about 32.8% Asian. While they don't break up 'asian' into nationality proper, there's a decent chunk of Japanese influence there already. But the mistake is in assuming that this influence is somehow 'foreign'. Growing up in the Bay Area, I've *never* felt like all those asians were somehow 'other' than Californian. And I've never seen any evidence that most of them feel themselves to be other than Californian either.
It comes back to the perpetual problem with Shadowrun's setup. Cyberpunk, as a genre, is fairly predicated on Japanophobia; in the 1980s, they seemed unstoppable, unable even to be slowed in their takeover of the world economy. So people were scared stiff of 'em. But really, the idea that they'd intern metahumans? That they'd become imperialist again, so swiftly after the shift *away* from it? Highly unlikely. I mean, the ideology of imperialism was removed in an *extremely* effective fashion from the Japanese mindset; despite the Boeicho Jietai being the third largest military in the world, all you have to do to see its' ideological limitations is look at how much flak they took for accepting the UN's demands that they deploy troops in Iraq.

My slightly more than two yen.

[Adarael]

BTW, Crimsondude?

Excellent post. I didn't echo any of your points because you said pretty much what I wanted to on the subject of LA.

Also, props to you for knowing City of Quartz.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Thanks. I learned about him through my bro's Anthropology of L.A. class at USC, and used his books for my Political Science thesis paper in my "Evil" thesis seminar (the actual name of the class).

[Mercer]

I think there is a tendency to go "cartoony" in sourcebooks. The best and worst example of this that I read was Cyberpirates. I hated the four-color treatment of the Caribbean section, but I loved the bleak outlook of the Africa chapter.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

I'm probably one of the few people who, prima facie, liked Cyberpirates! and which I had the money at the time to get the original manuscripts and materials from PropWash just because Chris Hepler made the original treatment sound much darker.

[Fortune]

[mfb]

well, there was the massive crack rock that the Gingerbread Man was... what? sitting on, i think?

[Mercer]

Then he was absorbing through assmosis. :)

I'm terribly sorry.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

The deck chair the size of Arthur Vogel he mentions (in a clearly edited sentence) only makes sense (otherwise, who cares?) once you find out it's a piece of crack rock.

They did list the prices of sex slaves, but they wanted to make them more... obviously prized smuggling goods. They also wanted to make the Philippines even darker.

Oh, and AFAIK all the quotes by Harley and Hestaby (which sit in their own little universe outside any other poster's notice) were clearly added after the fact.

[Trashman]

Have to admit a) I liked the California book (and most parts of the Cyberpirates too) and b) never been to the Fifth World equivalent of Cal. But then I'd be just another damn tourist between beach and Sunset Strip. So I'll gladly give that a pass until someone comes up with an alternative California. ;)

Adarael wrote:
But look at history - the civil rights movement, the Weathermen, the 1960s. Californians know how to fight for what they believe in, because the state at large generally marches to a different beat than midlands USA.

That's exactly my take on CFS for our campaign. Straight back to ye olden golden days of Zabriskie Point and all the other wonderfully freaky movies Hollywood never ever allowed to be made again ever since.
So, basically, I tweaked some of the information in the book to fit more into a sort-of 60ish style counter-culture with everything more to extreme. Drugs, music, Berkely, gov violence etc. I also checked out Steve Kenson's site and included his alternative piece on the alternative California, i.e. the gay underground of SanFran. Great fun (in all its social earnestness).
And, yes, as probably most of the posters here, I also toned down the Japanese and Saito thing. Saito is clearly a madman, something like Bokassa of RCA and Mobutu of Congo/Zaire. Only I suspect he won't last as long in California as those two nutters did in their countries.

[Cynic project]

here is a funny little note about japan.It can't feed it's own people,and is largely dependent on food from California.

But I have seen people who say they like what CFS is,but I haven't seen a why.

[mfb]

doesn't really have to be a why. the material is interesting, and many of the objections brought up by others just don't rankle me, personally.

[Gyro the Greek S...]

Hm.

If you are fine with the NAN (seeing as how this is all quite a nice fictional bubble) then I would suppose California isn't going to cause one much trouble...

And if one has problems with the NAN, I would think that California would be more of a footnote to the larger ludicrous nature of concentration camps for Native Americans, followed by said Native Americans hacking off a chunk of the United States and establishing their own countries.


And now...

LOOK OVER THERE! It's maaaaaaaaagic!

;)

[Cynic project]

Well, mfb that is true, but as noted they didn't go off and make Germany a Nazi happy go lucky fun land. They screwed the whole world up,and I like that, but they took time out of there day to make a point of the US fighting tooth and nail for seattle,and just letting the more important ports of California go... So I can understand why you may not think it need a reason,but I say if they let California go, why is Seattle part of the the UCAS?

LA makes more money than most nations. Hell, here is a scary thing the porn industry in LA is so big that is about as large as most the gross nation product of many countries.

As for the NAN, the best and only reasons why the NAN are there break down into two reasons. One the founding memeber of the NAN were willing to use WMD,and did so freely. Two, the area that the NAN have is largely a cash hole for the US as it is.It cost the US feds money to maintain that area.It costs more money than that land will ever return.

[FlakJacket]

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Well, I think it can be fixed (e.g., the L.A. Big One knocking down a lot of the walls, which should be smaller and less ubiquitous). I just think that the effort needs to go there. I don't have a problem with Saito, either, per se. I just think it would have been more interesting if San Francisco had remained a liberal bastion on the edge of the Japanese-controlled bay area--maybe gentirfying Oakland into Little Tokyo--while Berkeley sits right in the middle of it all.

It can be fixed.

What surprises me is how no one mentioned Aztlan's takeover of the second largest city in California.