 Does shadowrun need white and black hats? |
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 Dec 23 2004, 09:31 PM
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#1
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Running Target  Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543  |
So, why do you think that black and white hats should or shouldn't be in shadowrun.
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Dec 23 2004, 09:44 PM
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#2
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the brain-weasles are strong with this one. |
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Dec 23 2004, 09:46 PM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
In life, (and I realize Shadowrun isn't truly real life) there are no true good guys and bad guys. There are the people you agree with and the people you disagree with.
I personally think that Shadowrun ought to be the same. |
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Dec 23 2004, 09:51 PM
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#4
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
oh, there are definitely black hats in real life. for instance, human trafficking wouldn't be such a huge business, worldwide, if there weren't people out there who just plain didn't care about their fellow humans. there are white hats, too, though those are possibly a bit rarer. most of the world fits into one shade of grey or another, but that doesn't mean there isn't black and white at either end of the spectrum.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Dec 23 2004, 10:10 PM
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#5
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Guests |
I find this as an intriguing question only since there are no white hats in SR, nor have their been for the last 15 years.
So why bother now? |
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Dec 23 2004, 10:12 PM
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#6
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
As I haven't posted on the forums for 15 years,and I see people who do not share the same views as me or others on the major plots?
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Dec 23 2004, 10:36 PM
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#7
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I voted no, without them the world is more gritty. I also love the Horrors plot. Draw your own conclusions.
~J |
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Dec 23 2004, 10:43 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
What a puzzling statement. I suppose it's true, but it seems inconsequential too. The morality of a group doesn't make for very compelling drama. Conflicts of good and evil are really interesting only on the personal level. And on that note, I think everyone in a Shadowrun game probably has the capacity for evil; it's less clear if anyone truly has the capacity for good. Should there be truly vile and evil people in Shadowrun? I think so; it's necessary to throw the lesser evils of the shadowrunner into context. By the same token, I think it's also useful to occasionally use people who are more good than the runners, but much more sparingly. It's useful sometimes to throw the various heinous acts a shadowrunner commits into perspective, and possible give the characters something to think about. That kind of glimpse is much easier to overuse, though, because using it constantly just turns the runners into the real bad guys. |
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Dec 23 2004, 11:05 PM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 190 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,787 |
No, but they might be willing to do something expedient, or for the greater good. From the outside, or from a different perspective, that is evil. For example, does anyone doubt that the SR Japanacorps use child labor in the countries that the empire dominates, like the Philippines used to be? For a decent justification of using the homeless in the barrens for medical test subjects, see Here And just in case you want justification of something worse, read the rest of the story. And let us not get started on organized crime. "Just business", "Nothing Personal" indeed |
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Dec 23 2004, 11:06 PM
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#10
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Creating a god with his own hands Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364 |
Ignoring the fact that this question doesn't make much sense at face value, Yes, I believe that White hats have a place, in fact a lot of the main characters that frequent shadowland ARE White Hats. I'm not going to give any examples, as digging through half the SBs and quoting them is not my idea of fun. But there's that whole "be nice" attitude that Capt Chaos enforces that makes me think he's at least half and half. |
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Dec 23 2004, 11:12 PM
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#11
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
What's the question?
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Dec 24 2004, 12:03 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 172 Joined: 16-September 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,671 |
Guessing at what this post is about, every runner is essentually bad.
I like to think about rpg characters in the DnD alinement system, runners are definately chaotic, 99% arent good and a chunk are evil. Playing anything else is silly imho. |
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Dec 24 2004, 12:37 AM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
On some levels, I suppose I find the lack of examples of 'good' in the SR universe rather disheartening. It comes across that people in SR don't even bother with pretense, its flat out everyone for themselves. Ulterior motive? Nowadays it means hiding some agenda behind a nice face. In SR, its hiding your secret selfish motive behind another selfish motive you're using for cover :P
Possibly due to my experiences gaming with various people over the years in regards to SR, you don't have 'heroics' like are possible in DnD. You don't even have "I'm a rascal rebel Han Solo type fighting the system". Its more like "Whats my next gear? Is that guy in my way? Kill em." |
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Dec 24 2004, 01:26 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
Here's the thing, think about people in real life, really think about them for a second, are they interested in the greater good, or themselves?
Even those people who we think of a "good" people, (honest priests, people who donate a large portion of their income to charity, people who do random acts of kindness) they do it because it makes them feel good. Even those "good" people do those "good" acts for the warm fuzzy feeling that they get inside themselves. Secondly is the question of absolute morality. Morals are not absolute, what I think is "good" may be totally different from what you think is "good". Human beings have no absolute sense of right and wrong, nature vs. nurture, and I'm afraid most of the evidence points to nurture. People aren't inherently good or evil, even "bad" people aren't inherently evil. True pure evil is something mad up by fiction writers to sell their book. People don't act "evil" for its own sake, they act "evil" because they think it's the best thing for them to do at the time. They aren't "evil" they just have a different motovation in life. You can't put hat's on real people, to do so is to arbitrarily decide who's morals are better, and no man or woman has the right to decide that. Even if God exists, and that is a discussion for a different time, each person must follow his or her impression of what God wants human beings to do in the world. He or she must then face judgement at whatever time it is rendered. You can't classify Human beings into good and bad, to do so is to decide "I'm better than you are". And it's things of that nature that lead to racism and genocide, and I Personally don't want to see those things grow. To put Black and White hats into Shadowrun games is to further de-humanize NPCs. A GM already has a hard time gettting players to think of NPCs, or heck, even their PCs, as human. To put a hat on them takes them even further from the goal of making them "real". To sum this whole long arguement up "Hat's don't exist in the real world, and if you want any humanity in your game they shouldn't exist there either." |
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Dec 24 2004, 01:29 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 172 Joined: 16-September 04 From: UK Member No.: 6,671 |
But thats why SR is great, every other system I play my character is either 'normal' or good. A chance to be naughty and subversive is awesome.
I've just started playing DnD Ebron with my many not-sr group, and Ive desided to play a dodgy character (as have two of the others), alot more like a sr one. I think its going to be fantastic fun :E |
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Dec 24 2004, 01:37 AM
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#16
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Hats most certainly do exist in the real world. They maybe arbitrarily placed on another's head, but the vast majority of people do believe that they are good and someone else is evil. Just ask George Bush or Osama Bin Laden; you'll get vastly different answers as to who is evil, but both will agree it exists and that they are good. To have a world devoid of people who think they are good is bad fiction. |
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Dec 24 2004, 01:51 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
Certainly, but to have absolute hats is wrong, to have everyone say Bin Laden is "evil" or to even merely say, "Bin Laden is the definition of evil" is wrong. Hats, as I see them, aren't a question of perception, its a question of fact. So to tie it to Shadowrun, if the GM were to merely say "It is God's truth that corporations and all who work for them are evil" that would be putting them in a black hat. However, to say "You see corporations as evil because ... (take your pick of resons why)" isn't putting a hat on them, it's just how a person percieves them.
Hat's are an absolute, and even in your own post "Just ask George Bush or Osama Bin Laden; you'll get vastly different answers as to who is evil, but both will agree it exists and that they are good" you say that no absolute good and evil exists. Thereby hats, moral absolutes, don't exist. |
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Dec 24 2004, 01:52 AM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
um....SR runs on the concepts of Anti-Heros.
Batman, Punisher, and Deadpool are more commonly realatable to SR characters than Superman, Thor, and Spiderman (which all do well for comparing to D&D characters). Anti-Heros, by their very nature, come off as shady or wrong and very well might be, but they are the lesser wrong in the situation that is presented for them to fight against and thus, they become the Hero, and that's why they are an Anti-Hero. again....Chronicles of Ridick. |
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Dec 24 2004, 01:56 AM
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#19
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
So the question is whether moral absolutes exist in Shadowrun? Why are we wasting our time on it then? Even the Horrors aren't absolute evil. <sigh> Seriously Cynic, what's the question? |
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Dec 24 2004, 01:58 AM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
Even in Batman and things like that there is an assumption of absolute morality. My only problem with that is that morals aren't absolute, (see above paragraphs if you don't believe me). Thereby in my personal opinion SR should, and is, true to that idea. You don't think of runners as necesarily good, however, at least in the case of my group and me personally, you don't think of the corps, or more specifically the wage slaves and guards, as evil. SR, was designed to be played without absolute morality, just as the world lacks absolute morals. To eliminate that, in my opinion, is to eliminate one of the major differences between SR and "hack and slash" games.
I don't know if that was the intent of his question, but that was how I read it. |
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Dec 24 2004, 02:03 AM
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#21
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Not really. There's a "given" perspective on morality and all events are skewed to that prespective. Batman violates so many human rights and disreguards the privacy of others because he thinks he's better (not to mention insane and bent on revenge against all crime for the death of his parents)... |
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Dec 24 2004, 02:03 AM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
If it's a quesiton of morality you'll be waiting for an answer as long as they are still arguing over Correspondence Theory and Postmodernism. Basically, for all eternity. Oh, and Paul,
Might want to re-phrase that in the future to read, "I believe", because there are two sides to that argument as I've just mentioned. |
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Dec 24 2004, 02:06 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
I'm fairly up to date on my theories on morality and what is human nature, but I have no idea what either of those are.
Even the fact that there are two sides on that issue shows that morality isn't an absolute. You may wind up with a group who's personal morals are that there is an absolute morality, but so long as people disagree over what is right and what is wrong morality can't be absolute. Although I do have to work on my tendency to present my own views as an absolute as either way. I'll give you that one Kanada, however, the point that I was trying to make was that the world has no absolute morality and SR shouldn't either. And to be perfectly honest I think we find ourselves in violent agreement with each other on that point. |
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Dec 24 2004, 02:09 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Go here Paul:
Explination of Correspondence and Postmodernism Basically, Correspondence is the school of thought that gives us the concept of Absolute Truth and Absolute Reality, regardless of perception. Postmodernism is the school of thought that gives us the concept that nothing is abosolute and that Truth is perception and so it reality. |
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Dec 24 2004, 02:14 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
I'm more familiar on philosophies that assume an absolute truth, Kant and Rand, primarily, but I do appreciate your broadening of my horizons.
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