 Does shadowrun need white and black hats? |
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 Dec 25 2004, 12:56 AM
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#51
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 384 Joined: 18-August 03 From: North VA Member No.: 5,519  |
Just my .02 nuyen:
Regardless of morality arguments, I think Shadowrun does need white and black hats, just not on a large scale. Why? I believe that Shadowrun's major strength is the mutability of the setting and its ability to tell a story. There should be white and black hats available for a GM to use if that's what he or she wants to, or for the players to seek out if they wish. |
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Dec 25 2004, 03:07 AM
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#52
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
To me, White Hats and Black Hats means people who are all good fighting people who are all bad. Like in the early cowboy serials when the idealized good cowboy would fight the irredeemable villains, you know. So when we talk about the Hats, we're talking about a morality tale, G vs E. Its a conflict that is at its base completely uncomplicated: the bad guys are Bad and the good guys are Good. There's no middle ground. You're hat is a metaphor for your soul, either it is sparkling white or the deepest black.
As a storytelling gimmick, or as a motivation of conflict, that just doesn't do anything for me. It isn't the way I interpret the world to work, and so to me it looks like a particularly glaring, suspension-of-disbelief breaking attempt to graft movie morality onto the complexities of an SR game. It goes back to the theory that its all just a bunch of guys. |
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Dec 25 2004, 03:43 AM
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#53
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 384 Joined: 18-August 03 From: North VA Member No.: 5,519 |
Right, it doesn't do anything for you, but that isn't to say there shouldn't be an element available for someone it does do something for to use-and that others, like yourself, can ignore with no detriment.
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Dec 25 2004, 03:51 AM
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#54
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm very iffy about this example. While it has become commonly accepted, nothing clearly states that Claudius was indeed responsible for old Hamlet's death. The black marks on his soul could very well be other unspecified sins, possibly even sins that never saw action (sins of thought, as it were). Doctor Jest, Black Isis: there's no need to play emotionless serial killers to have people who don't abide by a moral code. I personally hate the idea of shadowrunners abiding by moral codes often, simply because it makes absolutely no sense to me (you're ruining people's lives with your work, what does it matter if you don't injure their bodies at the same time EDIT: Dammit, BitBasher, just 'cause I'm slow doesn't mean you have to go and make my point before me :P ;) ). The trick is, in my mind, that runners usually have morals like everyone else, just morals that they bend, make exceptions in, or outright break regularly. The moral code exists and is not followed, as it were. ~J |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Dec 25 2004, 05:16 AM
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#55
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Guests |
That show is so thoroughly dead to me it's not even funny. I hate that show for making me waste the first 22 hours watching that piece of crap the first season. |
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Dec 25 2004, 09:24 AM
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#56
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Well, I am unaware of when during any of these esoteric gaming theory discussions our personal opinions are meant to be taken as irrefutable facts. Part of my last post was just trying to clarify some terms. If you define "The Hats" as one thing, and I another, then debating including or excluding them in the game is kind of pointless since we are talking about different things. For me, "The Hats" are about moral simplicities. Good guys are good, Bad guys are bad, and they are conveniently color-coded for the audience's benefit. Nobody walks into a Roy Rodgers western half way through and is at a loss for whats going on. Nobody is going to be terribly shocked at how it turns out either, the White Hat is going to win, and he's going to do it without lying, cheating, or taking advantage of anyone (virtuous maidens included). In my opinion, the way SR is written-- that its stories about contract criminals going about their daily lives-- precludes it from being a White Hat and Black Hat story. Because even if the 'runners follow a moral code, and try to do good things; and even if the people they are fighting are morally reprehensible, neither are going to qualify for a monochromatic Hat. There hats will be greyish, mottled, black spots and white spots and probably a fair amount of color. Because the game has certain moral complexities inherent to it. Characters have to choose a path with no clear right or wrong, and sometimes, no matter what, they're going to end up hurting someone. This is not to say that characters should or shouldn't have a moral compass. That's up to the player. Some people play sociopaths, and some people play people who try to do good and minimize the harm, and I don't think that anyone can say what the Right way to play is. [ Spoiler ] "Does Shadowrun need White and Black Hats?" No. To state who are the Good Guys and who are the Bad Guys robs us as players of the ability to choose, its takes the moral complexity out of the game and it makes playing a character with a moral compass less fun because you don't have to think about what your character should do, but merely look up in the book who the G and B are, and side accordingly. Playing a moral character should be a challenge, it should make the player consider what actions he should or should not take, and thats the fun of it. Otherwise, why bother playing a moral character at all, if all you have to do is ask the GM what you should do? I conclude this rant in the manner all rants should be concluded, "This is H.L. Putgrass signing off and heading for the tub."-- Berkley Breathed |
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Dec 25 2004, 10:46 AM
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#57
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
I'm a straight up nihilist (of the objective truth is unknowable, all we know is cogito, ergo sum variety), and I think the idea that there is no good or evil is simply laughable. Sure pure good and pure evil are ridiculous caricatures, but those who are so close as to be basically pure evil or good do exist, both in our real world or in Shadowrun.
Just to clarify, I've always felt the basic ideas behind morality were fairly self-evident, but what with organized religions and all, a lot of people seem to have gotten confused. Morality isn't about some set of rules, but how we as human beings choose to interact with each other. To oversimplify, Good is best defined, IMHO as altruism, by which I mean helping others, especially at cost to one's self, primarily for emotional rewards, rather than material. Evil would be best defined as sadism, in that an individual chooses to harm others, primarily for emotional rewards, with most people, most of the time, simply being amoral, or selfish, in that they just take care of "me and mine," acting primarily in the interest of material gains. So, if a thief robs a guy to feed himself or his family, it's amoral, if he does it to feel big and powerful it's evil, and if he rips off some suit and uses all the take to make life better for the kids living in the Barrens(i.e. 'hooding), it's good. Just out of curiosity, how exactly does one run a grey hat Wendigo? Or Bunraku parlor, or pretty much any other slave operation? Or even a corporate exec who exploits the wage slaves? While white hats can be lifted out, the game breaks down in a hurry if we try to pretend that black hats don't exist, and haven't been ruling most of the world more or less throughout history. |
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Dec 25 2004, 11:09 AM
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#58
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Now I'm really confused. You're saying "Black Hat = Evil = Sadism (an individual chooses to harm others, primarily for emotional rewards)", while "Grey Hat = Amoral = Selfish (take care of "me and mine," acting primarily in the interest of material gains)". And then you can't understand how a corporate exec could be a grey hat?
It seems to me that nearly all corporate execs are in it for the material gains. They may well be working extra hard to make sure their kids get to the better colleges. They might want to improve their social status to impress a girl (read Great Gatsby?). Mostly they just want to make life more bearable for themselves and their family, and cutting the benefits of wageslaves (and the exec won't think of them as wageslaves) might sometimes be necessary to reach that end. And I can certainly think of innumerable reasons why someone might be in the slaving business and not be "absolutely evil", at least by your definitions. |
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Dec 25 2004, 11:36 AM
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#59
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I think the metaphor of the Black Hat breaks down when you try to apply it to things other than people. Insect Spirits, Horrors et al don't really fit into a discussion about morality for a couple of reasons. Its like something that was said in an old D&D game of mine, "Its not that Tiamat's evil, is just that she yearns to destroy all of creation." For me, the Insect Spirits are a good example of this (I don't know enough about the Horrors to comment since I've never read the books they are in and I never played ED). Insects Spirits aren't good or evil, because they don't think in those terms.
My point here, besides getting to dredge up movie quotes from Alien and The Hellstrom Chronicle, is that Insect Spirits, and a lot of other things, get filed under forces of nature. Most "monsters" fall into this trap, and SR has a lot of monsters. Its not so much about G&E, but its more like they're rabid dogs. You may have loved Ol'Yeller, but once he goes toxic you got to shoot him. In terms of people: I think its easier to assume that if someone does bad things, they're a Black Hat. That the corporate master who exploits his workforce is irredeemably evil, but it ignores the complexity that no one is all good or all bad. (I'll allow the standard exception for each of Mother Teresa and Hitler, if only because I don't want to be dragged through the logical conclusion of having to argue that Mother Teresa had bad qualities or that Hitler loved puppies.) I mean, Kathy Lee Gifford and the Olsen Twins were both complicit in inhumane sweatshops being run to manufacture their mechandise, does this make them evil? (I will allow that Kathy Lee Gifford is evil, but only because she totally creeps me out.) All I'm saying is, if I can't find absolute g&e in the real world, why should I have to crowbar it into the game? Both systems seem to work just fine without it. Edited for flow |
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Dec 25 2004, 03:46 PM
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#60
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Guests |
1. I'm sorry.
2. Indeed.
3. Wha....???
4. Do not presume to understand the purpose of morality.
5. You're confusing Good with Justice, and I direct your attention towards The Republic. 6. Good is an adjective, and describes how something is done. You continue to confuse it with Justice, which is how people ought to interact with each other. 7. You concept of Evil is no more than the description of an Unjust act, which clearly requires the involvement of multiple perspectives. Evil, though, is an abstract concept which generally makes no difference what the context is... Real Evil is a noun, not an adjective (which is simply trite).
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Dec 25 2004, 06:08 PM
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#61
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
It seems sort of odd to say good is an adjective and evil is noun. In this context, we are comparing them as like things. Either they are both or neither. In any event, the man is entitled to his beliefs. It seems pointless to belittle his beliefs with your own beliefs. (You should belittle his beliefs with facts, otherwise neither of you have what I would call a winning hand.) I'm willing to accept that we all believe differently in the matter of good, evil, truth, beauty, light, dark and the soul. That people have debated the exact nature and source of the perceived light and dark of humanity for thousands of years makes it seem to me a tad unlikely we will accidentally solve it while arguing about Shadowrun (though thats not to say I am married to my skepticism. If anyone one solves definitively any of Mankind's burning questions, please post them, either in this forum or in General Gaming). If anything, I think people come by their beliefs viscerally and then justify them intellectually; so its not the sort of thing you can "talk" people out of. That you and I (for instance) might disagree on such a thing as Real Evil and continue to disagree after hours of debate is not a sign that one of us is being unreasonable, but merely that people see the world differently. Looking down on someone for not sharing your beliefs is however unreasonable, and I can't help but think the world would be a better place if people didn't have that baseline insecurity that reads someone else's disagreement as a threat to their own ideas. Case in point. I believe in a discussion like this one, good and evil are both adjectives. Basically, they're terms people came up with to describe their feelings about certain things, and as such they don't really have any meaning all by their lonesome. The concept of Real Evil is something I find trite. I don't believe in demons or devils, or for that matter, angels or gods. I found them to be unnecessary to my working model and so I took them out, and all my equations worked fine without them. As an atheist, I really don't have anything against people who believe in god. (Honestly, if you've come by anything that brings you and peace or comfort and doesn't cost you anything and you don't have to deprive anyone else to have it, then I find that commendable.) If nothing else, most major religions set down the rules of decent interpersonal behavior. What does this have to do with Shadowrun? Okay, nothing. You've got me there. What does any of this have to do with shadowrun? Not very much. From now on I will restrict myself to just worrying about how our various versions of morality (and reality) affect the game. I leave the gods and demons to another forum. |
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Dec 26 2004, 12:07 AM
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#62
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
Austere Emancipator, to clarify, when I say most of the corporate masters are black hats I mean that, in my experience, most people who go out of their way to reach an administrative position, whether in corporations or politics are doing it not for the money, but for the power. They want to deprive others of their own ability to make decisions in the interest of their own pleasure. Regarding whether one in the slaving industry need be absolutely evil, I agree there are no real absoulte. But they're definitely evil enough to deserve to die for it, and that makes them evil enough for the black hat in my view.
Crimsondude 2.0, I'm most definitely not confusing Good with The Republic's justice. A better critique would be confusing selfishness with Plato's justice. To simply do good for one's allies and bring harm to one's enemies is too relativistic, even for me. I'd argue it's impossible to have objectivitiy, especially moral objectivity, without multiple perspectives. Having seen your Plato, I'll raise you a Nietzsche...Most people choose do good or evil, not out of philosophical ideals, but aesthetic ones. Just as some people love pistachio ice cream and some hate it, or some think red is the best color while others favor blue, so too are good and evil. Some people simply prefer to inflict harm on others, while some prefer to help. |
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Dec 26 2004, 12:07 AM
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#63
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Target Group: Members Posts: 55 Joined: 7-May 04 Member No.: 6,308 |
Sorry, double post.
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Dec 26 2004, 12:47 AM
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#64
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You must have worked in some seriously fucked up places, then. I know several people in such positions quite well indeed, and that does not describe any of them to any extent. Frankly, those views are a bit scary. Regardless of a few bad apples, a lot of bad PR and a shitload of paranoia, corp execs still tend to be normal human beings, mostly interested in things like real disposable income, family and friends. Or even cash, eating and sex. Hardly ever dominating others and making them feel like shit. Seriously, what you said about corp execs doesn't even describe many of the career army officers I ran into. Even they are mostly just genuinely concerned about the state of the military and our ability to defend ourselves, as well as getting promoted to get more money and more means to make a difference.
Surely you aren't surprised that not everyone agrees everyone working (other than as a slave) in any kind of slaving operation should be killed outright? In a RPG, I truly think it is not the job of the GM to push morality onto the players. It's the players' job to view the world through whatever set of morals and ethics their characters might possess. The fact that you consider people in administrative positions in corporations to be Evil while I think they are the exact same tone of grey as the janitors is proof that there is no outside arbiter who bluntly states "This Guy Is Evil", "This Guy Is Good". If the GM kept telling my player that the corp execs really are 3v1l, it would be kind of hard for me to keep my views. |
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Dec 26 2004, 02:59 AM
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#65
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I'd be careful to avoid oversimplification here. Most people don't choose one or the other. Thats my main objection to the idea of White and Black Hats, I don't believe people are all good or all bad. [ Spoiler ]
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Dec 26 2004, 08:54 PM
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#66
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29-August 04 From: in my mind Member No.: 6,614 |
I believe the truth to this answer lies only in subjectivity really, you can debate morality and belief systems concerning good and evil endlessly really...especially in relation to a dystopic cyberpunk pen and paper rpg. And thats without even really examining religious or metaphysical belief systems. Corporate society in Shadowrun is something I have always envisioned and portrayed as very 'Japanese' of course, and with the caste like social hiearchy that exists in Shadowrun this emphasises the Corporate society and way of life even more so. By one means or another I've always imagined a majority of civilized society in Shadowrun being upheld and functioning through the Corporate world (especially in nations such as Aztlan, UCAS, Pueblo, Quebec etc.). With such a broad gap between the pampered and sheltered SIN carrying, law abiding, nuyen fearing corporate employee and...well everyone else... The thought of a world without the Corporations or the corporate way of life I imagine as being absolutely horrifying to the average citizen of the Sixth World. As if the world wasn't frightening enough already for most people, the thought of being deduced to one of those SINless, homeless, desperate, BTL addicted, violent and out of control squatters, gangers, or shadowrunners out there is probably almost beyond comprehension. With most people being employed in one way or another by the corps, and with the Corporations operating almost every facet of mainstream society in Shadowrun... I suppose my point is through all this rambling is that with such a vast gap in such a complex social hiearchy where the "civilized" and the "barbaric" are so divided yet live in such an enclosed enviornment as a mass urban sprawl is that there is going to be a LOT of fear. Obviously one can already see this in modern society to a certain extent, but not only is there this element of absolute fear but then you have the Corporate method of life. Everyone, from the Ork janitor that cleans the office down the hall to the Damien Knight is conditioned to this 'sheltered', but at the same time very cut throat Corporate life. Of course, with each corporation methods and practices are going to vary and differentiate. But you can certainly bet on that disgusting heathen Ork janitor always keeping his mouth shut and doing his job to his utmost ability in the name of Renraku, and hey, maybe he can earn enough Renraku Points to earn himself a .50:nuyen: raise or an extra day off next month to go pick up his kids from his ex-wife for a visit to the arcology....Just as the corporate deck jockey might sabotage a rival's R&D project to make himself look more prestigious to his peers and to earn himself a couple of extra Points....or how Villers was completely huimiliated in the aftermath of the Corp war. Corporate and social standing are one in one in the capitalist utopia of the Shadowrun world, and anything goes when it comes to serving your master so to speak. Very cutthroat, yes. Excuse my rambling and excessive commas. |
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Dec 26 2004, 08:55 PM
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#67
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Target Group: Members Posts: 17 Joined: 29-August 04 From: in my mind Member No.: 6,614 |
Ack, double post.
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Dec 27 2004, 03:00 PM
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#68
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
The biggest issue with reducing it down to only black & white hats is this: I have a white hat, I can only ever act in a "good" way, never anything that could possibly be conceived of as evil. Alternately, I have a black hat, everything I ever do will be evil and I can never do anything remotely good, it will always be evil.
The difference in that, and the grey hats: I have a light grey hat, I am usually good, do most good things, but, hey, I'll watch out for myself now and then, ya'know? Or, I have a dark grey hat. Its a hard world out there, and you gotta watch out for yourself, but I like to pack narcoject in my guns, I mean, its not the security guards fault he was guarding stuff that I needed. |
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Dec 27 2004, 03:35 PM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
The problem with reducing it down to hats is simply that you just did.
This isn't D&D. There are no nice black lines like that. There is only a very large area of grey. Why? Because the Corps think they are doing the right thing and so do the runners, to simplify it to a sentence. |
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Dec 27 2004, 03:35 PM
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#70
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
dammit! double posting !&%%*& @*&#*
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Dec 27 2004, 03:50 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 280 Joined: 22-October 03 Member No.: 5,757 |
Good. Bad. I'm the guy with the gun.
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Dec 27 2004, 08:04 PM
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#72
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Corps don't "think." They are, by design, amoral institutions contructed to amass capital for the sole sake of amassing capital. This is perhaps the central ethical problem of the Shadowrun universe; capitalist zeal run amuck, and the corporate beasts are completely unfettered of any human control. People who are the most successful adapt, as closely as they are able, the amoral code of the corporation they work for.
The game always works with this assumption: that the dominance of megacorporations is a bad thing. It's from that assumption that all the ethical problems and moral dilemmas inherent in Shadowrun spring. The setting is intended to suppose dramatically exaggerated features of reality, to illustrate and explore why certain things might be bad. As a fictional universe, it's OKAY to presume assumptions like this; if you don't, you're basically just using the game for the more mundane purpose of a playground. |
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Dec 27 2004, 09:37 PM
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#73
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
I have to disgaree. I don't think the game itself ever asserts this. The corps simply are. This isn't cyberpunk there are not even any movements to bring down the corps that I am aware of except for the rebels in Aztlan, but that's an anti government movement, and not really the same. The players as the game is presented make the vast majority of their money directly working for the corps. The corps provide a decent lifestyle for a big chunk of the people ont he planet. Where did you get this idea?
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Dec 27 2004, 09:46 PM
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#74
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Well, I bring this up because you do have black hats in shadowrun. Aztlan, Saito,Bugs,Horrors, SK.... These people are played out as if they do not have have a good bone in them. All for a gambit of reasons.
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Dec 27 2004, 10:05 PM
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#75
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Aztlan: not much is known. Easy to demonize when information is incomplete.
Saitoh: bringing peace and prosperity to the humans. Bugs: they're not evil, just wholly alien. Horrors: to some degree, see above. Also see Ysrthgrathe. Horrors are less evil than humanity as a whole. Saeder-Krupp: evil since when, exactly? ~J |
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