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> Safecracking, bad santa is a horribly vulgar movie....
Solstice
post Dec 24 2004, 05:13 PM
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I was seeking opinions on how you think safecracking should be treated in SR. In this age of red systems, secure PLTGs and electronic nuyen, is there even a use for safes anymore? For what? Combination electronics and mechanical locks? Skills needed to open? Sophisticated advances from now to 2064?

If this is covered in some book I don't own I'm sorry for belaboring the topic.
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Eugene
post Dec 24 2004, 05:18 PM
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I don't see why not. There's lots more things to put in safes besides cash - coin collections, jewelry, important documents, rare/unique items, etc. In Ocean's 12, for example, they break into a Dutch man's safe to get the first stock certificate ever printed.

I don't know of any specific rules, though, safe the standard stuff about maglocks.
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bitrunner
post Dec 24 2004, 05:19 PM
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lockpicking and safecracking skills were in SOTA2063 - each with specializations for the type of lock system (tumbler, etc)...

safes definitely have a place - where else are you going to store diamonds, gold bars, data chips, prototypes, or other secret data and physical commodities??
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Solstice
post Dec 24 2004, 05:28 PM
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is it covered in 2064 also ( i just ordered it) or only 2063?
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RangerJoe
post Dec 24 2004, 05:36 PM
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Even in 2064, I imagine a fair number of technophobic Persons of Power will still use good old fashioned strongboxes. Even if a data chip has the most glacial scramble IC on it, and lives in the most secure corporate compound, I'd still feel safer if it was also in a big metal box behind a painting.

I'd look out for more "trapped" safes in the 2060s. Just as maglocks have tamper-detection systems on them, I'd imagine a mechano-electric safe system having enough smarts to tell when it is being cracked, releasing either neurostun to disable the crackers, or detonating an internal plastique charge to prevent data/objects from falling into the wrong hands.
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mfb
post Dec 24 2004, 07:11 PM
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or just blowing the unlocking mechanisms, so that you can't get the goodies inside without physically cutting through the safe. i'm sure Cray74 can come up with some materials that are just about cut-proof by any means short of those found in a facility somewhere.
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FlakJacket
post Dec 24 2004, 08:16 PM
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QUOTE (RangerJoe)
releasing either neurostun to disable the crackers, or detonating an internal plastique charge to prevent data/objects from falling into the wrong hands.

Thermite's definately what you want for something like this. Turns anything inside the safe to ash or slag without the need for oxygen, and if you're lucky and the burgler opens the safe quick enough they might get a face full of it as well :)
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Kanada Ten
post Dec 24 2004, 10:04 PM
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"And the religious news item today is that Archbishop O'Connor won't be attending Christmas service as he's undergoing intensive facial reconstruction after a security device protecting the curch safe malfunctioned and melted it off. Back to you Diane."
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Edward
post Dec 25 2004, 02:00 AM
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Before you start lining your safe with thermit you need to ask yourself. Are you trying to keep the contents for yourself or prevent somebody from getting it?

EG the deniable assets division of any corporation will have a safe that contains certified cred sticks in various denominations for paying deniable assets. This safe will be difficult to gain entry to but will not self destruct, it doesn’t cost anymore if somebody takes the cred than if you destroy it and they may well set of the tamper switch when they would never have actually been able to get into the safe. And even if they get in there is a chance you will be able to recover the contents

What most safes probably have is an effect similar to modern safes. Once you trip the tamper the bolts that secure the door are permanently lodged in position. Even with the correct identifiers (keys, pass-codes, retinal scans) you can not get in, the manufacturer will have big cutting tools that will be able to get in but it will take a long time, a thief would take hours at least to cut open the safe, possibly days.

Most safes will be secured with a multiple bolt mag lock witch will be destroyed (holding in the locked position) when the incorrect code is entered to many times.

Edward
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Crusher Bob
post Dec 25 2004, 02:26 AM
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These are, of course, good safes. Many 'regular' ones can be opened with 10 minutes and a good drill.
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Lindt
post Dec 25 2004, 03:27 AM
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Once you remove the need for stealth, opening a safe can be done somewhat quickly (matter of hours). That is however provided you can move the safe. With an air hammer, an oxy-acediline torch, and prehaps a good re-cip saw, most safes can be cracked off site.
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otaku mike
post Dec 25 2004, 04:58 AM
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QUOTE (RangerJoe)
Even in 2064, I imagine a fair number of technophobic Persons of Power will still use good old fashioned strongboxes.

Hey, even old Dunky left things in sealed boxes :)
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hobgoblin
post Dec 25 2004, 08:08 AM
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probably for good reason...
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Edward
post Dec 25 2004, 10:28 AM
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If I was trying to break into a safe I would be wary of using an oxy cutter burning bars or any such convenient method out of fear that the heat would damage the contents, when you present badly singed bearer bonds to the bank they will ask a lot more questions.

Edward
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hobgoblin
post Dec 25 2004, 08:56 PM
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hmm, heat sensitive fire alarms anyone?
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Zen Shooter01
post Dec 26 2004, 04:47 AM
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Any door can be circumvented, given enough tools, skill, and time. But getting all three of those in one place at one time is the trick.

And of course there are still safes, as has been said. Certified sticks, gems, precious metals (including uranium), explosives, firearms, drugs, enchanting materials...the weight to value ratio of orichalcum, for example, is huge.
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Just Jonny
post Dec 26 2004, 04:56 AM
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The main reason I'd think safes would be around in Shadowrun is that just about every street punk looking to break into the local Stuffer Shack has the Electronics skill, but damn near nobody has Safecracking.
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Solstice
post Dec 26 2004, 06:09 AM
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Hrmm I was going to ask a very obvious question. Thankfully, I looked at the NSRCG skills section before making (a bigger) fool of myself. :eek:
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Shrapnel
post Dec 26 2004, 07:57 AM
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QUOTE (Lindt)
Once you remove the need for stealth, opening a safe can be done somewhat quickly (matter of hours). That is however provided you can move the safe. With an air hammer, an oxy-acediline torch, and prehaps a good re-cip saw, most safes can be cracked off site.

One of my characters once got hired to retrieve the contents of a personal safe... He didn't have any sort of lockpicking or safecracking skill, so he improvised.

Let's just say that his method involved a large truck, a long chain, and a hasty retreat. It wasn't the most subtle by any means, but it gave him the time to find someone to open the safe.

As a side note, I remember a similar story in real life, where some idiots tried to rip an ATM machine out of a wall, by using a chain attached to their bumper. It ripped the bumper right off of the truck, and the idiots freaked out, leaving the bumper (and the license plate) at the scene of the crime... :eek:
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Crusher Bob
post Dec 26 2004, 11:13 AM
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Yep, similar 'improvisations' have occured in the Philippines, apparently up to blowing an entire wall off the bank building, and then making off with the cash.
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toturi
post Dec 26 2004, 12:25 PM
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The assumptions in these cases are that if you use raw brute force to get to the safe, it'll attract a lot of attention. But sometime the sheer shock value of the brute force approach outweighs the disadvantages of the attention. Besides, if you have a sufficiently strong troll you can steal the safe and crack it at your leisure.
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Jrayjoker
post Dec 26 2004, 12:41 PM
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Psychologically speaking, the safe sliding along the road and throwing sparks 50 meters behind the armored car is more interesting than the armored car.
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Demosthenes
post Dec 27 2004, 01:10 PM
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QUOTE (Shrapnel)
QUOTE (Lindt @ Dec 24 2004, 10:27 PM)
Once you remove the need for stealth, opening a safe can be done somewhat quickly (matter of hours).  That is however provided you can move the safe.  With an air hammer, an oxy-acediline torch, and prehaps a good re-cip saw, most safes can be cracked off site.

One of my characters once got hired to retrieve the contents of a personal safe... He didn't have any sort of lockpicking or safecracking skill, so he improvised.

Let's just say that his method involved a large truck, a long chain, and a hasty retreat. It wasn't the most subtle by any means, but it gave him the time to find someone to open the safe.

As a side note, I remember a similar story in real life, where some idiots tried to rip an ATM machine out of a wall, by using a chain attached to their bumper. It ripped the bumper right off of the truck, and the idiots freaked out, leaving the bumper (and the license plate) at the scene of the crime... :eek:

There was a gang here in Ireland that ripped off a couple of ATMs using JCBs (I have no idea what you uncivilised Americans call a JCB...). Drove up to the bank, rammed the backhoe into the wall above the atm to rip it out, scooped it up in the shovel, and off they went...

Haven't heard much about them since, though.
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Ed_209a
post Dec 27 2004, 03:20 PM
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Sounds an awful lot like a front-end loader.

Big hydraulic shovel on the front, smaller hydraulic scoop on the back?
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Lindt
post Dec 27 2004, 03:24 PM
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QUOTE (Demosthenes)
There was a gang here in Ireland that ripped off a couple of ATMs using JCBs (I have no idea what you uncivilised Americans call a JCB...).

Either JCBs or backhoes.
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