Are Astral Signatures Magical Fingerprints?, WHO CARES ANYWAY Options

[Euiscerati]

An Astral Signature is described as a magical 'fingerprint' in SR3. The idea is that once you successfully assense an aura, you can immediately recognize it if you see it again. So if you assense a thousand Auras, you can just remember all of them? No Int test needed to remember where you saw that Signature? OK. This seems like such a huge problem in SR3 that upon Initiation instead of gaining a point of magic you can decide to change your astral signature. Why would you ever need to change your astral signature, let alone give up a point of Magic to do so? So the local security mage reads your aura from a spell you left. So what? One guy knows you aura. The rationale for changing your Astral Signature given in MitS is that various organizations know your signature so better change it. How do they know it? One guy sees your aura and can recognize it if he sees it again, but that's hardly some organization wide cataloging of your Astral Signature. Fingerprints can be copied and transfered to those with no direct experience with the finger. How do you transfer info about an Aura? 'It was kind of bright, but it was also darker in places....'

Some kind of powerful memory spell that you could transfer to another person perhaps? But now there are two people who would recognize the Aura. So for every Aura someone in an organization identifies, the magicians have to keep casting powerful memory transfering spells on each other to share the info? So they spend all their time drained form powerful memory spells? Cost benefit analysis= TOTAL WASTE OF TIME. It's not like humans have memory crystals like Dragons or can translate an aura into a photocopy like a fingerprint. So there's no way to transfer data on your Aura around an organization whiel retaining your sanity.

Even if all the mages spent all day casting supermemoryAura spells on each other and they all could recognize every criminals aura, SO WHAT? They can't use that knowledge for ritual magic. If you blow up a factory and they sniff out your Aura again, what does that get them? 'So he strikes again....uh....' Are sec mages going to spend all their time assensing the Astral hoping they recognize someone passing by their window on the street? It's much easier to track down the fixer of the run and get your ID then it is to track you using your Astral Signature.

No way to catalog Astral Signatures and even if there was, so what?

[Sphynx]

For the most part, I agree. I've never heard of someone changing their sig instead of gainin a Magic point or losing a Geasa personally.

As for the chance to recognize an Aura, I think it says 'can' not 'will', but I could be mistaken. I think it's more like facial recognition where the aura might remind you of someone/something at times, but people who have outstanding Auras, are easily recognized.

Sphynx

[Zazen]

I noticed that a long time ago and ruled that it's possible to write down the details of an astral signature according to arcane formulae and whatnot. I say that there's a convention set down for doing this that you learn in college or from LS/your corp/wherever.

[sir fwank]

[Sunday_Gamer]

There are definitely formulas that allow mages to "write down" an astral signature. Law enforcement definitely keep track on these things. Astral perception being defined as a psychic sense, a mage who was sensed your signature before and who looks at it again will "recognize" it, which doesn't guarantee he remembers where he/she saw it.

As far as changing your astral signature, I've have about 6 people through the years go for a sig change upon initiation, in fact in most of those cases, the initiation was prompted by a need to change ones astral signature.

Cops and Corps in my games are not happy friendly puppy factories, nor are they coalitions of Keystone coppers.

You did a run against some corp and left your astral sig behind? Well they might just log it, feed it to the cops, really depends how much your run pissed them off.

Oh you stole the new top secret project and killed 4 guards one of which was the husband of the cousin of the vice president of toilet paper? Uh oh! Well they have your signature and watchers are free, so every hour, on the hour, they send little astral buddies to look for you. Or they'll spend some coin, summon some big chunky elementals and just keep sending them after you, I mean at 1000 :nuyen: per force point, they'll justify that you stealing a file which they evaluate at half a million :nuyen: is worth quite a few elementals.

The wrong people, with enough reason, resources and your sig, can make your life a living hell, you will be "on the lamb" until you can get rid of this damned signature.

Again, entirely dependant on how you run your games. In my games, mages are paranoid about leaving their astral fingerprints behind on runs, and you don't always have the luxury of wiping your prints as you go, specially if you're leaving in a hurry. Though there are other ways around it, I had a player bribe a corporate mage to have him alter the signature the corp had on record, essentially destroying his prints.

The long and short of it is, depends on the game your in, your GM either uses astral signatures or doesn't really concern himself with them. Me, I'm a shit head =) My corps really hate runners who run against them ( gee, wonder why? )

Sunday.

[Zazen]

[Kagetenshi]

I'd personally rule that there is some way to record and share an aura signature description amongst people who have not all seen it. However, in general I'd consider it only a problem for a major magical crime.
Even not assuming that there is some way to share that information, I'd say if Lone Star picks up a magical criminal they're probably going to have their local mages and any mages of friendly organizations come over and assense the culprit. Corps might just do that with their own secmages, but still can be a problem.
However, I'd consider it something like changing your fingerprints, something only necessary if you screw up somehow.

~J

[Anymage]

[Euiscerati]

First, Astral Signatures can be 'recognized' once assensed. That hardly sounds like memory of every significant detail of someone's Aura. I'm sorry, do people remember fingerprints once they've seen them? Do people have total recall of a fingerprint once they've seen it once? No, people refer to a record that can be easily created. Assensing only allows you to recognize an Aurau, not have total recall over it's every aspect. So maybe there is a detection spell that allows you to detect memories or maybe that would be a manipulation spell? Anyway, I suggested a way to dig up your memory and recall the Astral Signature exactly, but then all the mages woudl watse their time casting and recasting these powerful spells.

Fingerprints are physical and can be modeled physically. I suppose you could write a formula for soemone's Astral signature even though such a record or way of recording Astral signatures appears nowhere in SR that I'm aware of. Some suggest this is like writing a spell formula. OK, then instead of Force, you'd use the Magic rating of the Aura since that's the similar magic power that force is to spells. So even if you somehow had total knowledge of someone's Aura which would be far more detailed then any single fingerprint, they'd have to spend the time and effort to write out a long formula for each assensing? So every sec mage has 'Astral Signature Record Design' as a skill high enough to actually accomplish such a feat if it wasn't a waste of time? Since Mages average 6 Magic, the SEC mage would need 'Astral Signature Record Design' at level 6 since you can't design a spell higher than your design skill, so same with astral Signature since you claim it's the same idea. The TN for the average Astral Signature Record for a Mage with Magic 6 would be 12. Totally rediculous.

This is clearly stupid. I'm not talking about your games or your rules. Play how you want. I'm pointing out that Astral Signature is no big deal in Shadowrun.

[Zazen]

[booklord]

I'll list the questions and how I'd handle them. I'm trying to stick as close as possible to the rules, but still explain how an organization like Lone Star could learn your signature.

Can a magician remember an astral signature just by assensing it?
Yes, its clearly stated in the book that a magician can recognize a signature he has assensed before. However I would probably limit the number of remembered signatures to the assenser's intelligence.

Can a magician record an astral signature?
For the example in Magic In The Shadows to work than magicians must be able to record a signature. A magician has to be able to show the signature to another or it would take a lifetime to get yourself known to multiple organizations. But I wouldn't allow them to describe it in a set of written formulae. ( After all how can a mage describe a shaman's signature and vice versa? ) Instead I'd allow them to record the signature on an inanimate object ( probably using the object resistance as a target number) like a piece of paper. ( I like the idea of a piece of paper since it would allow Lone Star to have an Astral Signature Mug shot book ) Sorcery would be needed for such a feat, but no specific spell. Another magician assensing the object could learn the signature.

Can a magician whose assensed your astral signature recognize you by assensing your aura?
Yes. Of course the magician would have to penetrate any masking the character may have.

[Zazen]

[Sunday_Gamer]

I'm with Zaz on this one. They have formulas for spells, surely they have formulas for auras, to allow them to describe or quantify a signature.

I don't think that's far fetched at all, I think it would in fact, be necessary.

Sunday

[BitBasher]

And spell formula cannot be aura based because they can be traded over the matrix...

[Sunday_Gamer]

Gee Bit, be literal why don't you.

I simply meant that half the mages being hermetic types, they would have developed a formula ( meaning a system) for writing such things down. Which in all my games, they have. Magespeak should serve for something right? ;)

Sunday.

[AK404]

Of course, I don't know if it's been said, but something Euiscerati neglected to mention is that astral signatures are relative: get ten mages to astrally scan another mage and you'll get ten different answers. Thus, astral signatures cannot be "kept on file," where LS, the Red Samurai, the FBI and KE can trade information on a certain individual and their "signature spells." All that info is in someone's head, and how well they remember you depends entirely on the severity of your crime or your annoyance factor.

In a way, this is a good thing: if only one mage (or a group of mages) know what your sig looks like and can't describe it to others because it's all relative anyways, then that narrows down the number of people of who know you by astral. OTOH, that's a small group of people who know you by astral, and because you can fake an astral signature as well as you can fake a good meal, those people are going to get to know you very well, even if you never meet them.

Granted, I'm just learning mages myself, but having a small team of LS mages who're slowly tracking my mage's progress (hm...looks like he's notched up that powerball a bit...and look here, something's different about the trail his astral form left...I think he initiated once. Knowing him, he'd probably go for...) and watching him from afar, learning what ware he has in his bod, and how to take him down...after a while, I think changing my astral signature might be a smart idea.

[Sunday_Gamer]

I would very much like to see this "relative" astal signature. That goes against everything I know and have read so needless to say, I'm interested.

Sunday.

[BitBasher]

In reality I would like to see anywhere where it states definitively one way or the other that auras can be recorded. I do not recall that issue ever being addressed officially.

Technically if an astral signature needed to be recorded all you would need is a percieving mage that knows trid phantasm, or the lighter drain "vision only" version of it. he sees the aura, duplicates it with the spell visible to the real world, then they trid photograph or video it, with the mage providing commentary.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Bit, an astral signature is defined, related to and treated in the game like "astral fingerprints" as the name of this thread suggests. Fingerprints, are unique.

Least that's where I stand and I'd be really impressed if anyone can convince me otherwise.

I personally find the idea of each mage perceiving a signature differently to be preposterous.

Sunday.

[Talia Invierno]

[Lucyfersam]

@AK404

Where did you find something that states each mage perceives auras/signatures differently? I have never come across anything that implied that each mages astral perception was unique to them.

As far as use of auras/signatures by security agencies, it is true that no rules are stated for how this is done, but it is stated that they do use them. If you need the mechanics of the process, it is up to you to define it for your game, or ignore it and say it doesn't happen if that's what you wish. As for the use of such a database, it is exactly the same use as a fingerprint database. The police know that the signature on that highly illeagle force 6 powerball belongs to Joe Mage, who they've just been waiting to get the last piece of evidence to clinch a case against, they now have proof that he is responsible for the murder of these 6 security guards because he didn't manage to wipe his signature out. Joe is now arrested and charged with said murders and goes to prison or to execution depending on the laws of the area.

[BitBasher]

Sunday, im not arguing with you, I feel the exact same way! I think that there is a definite identifiable universal quality to an astral signature. Whether or not a standard exists that allows a mage to relate this to other mages so they can keep an eye out is something that has never been addressed. That is all I was trying to get across.

And I have had several characters in game take the option of altering their astral signature upon initiation.

[AK404]

Astral forms being based on individual perception:

Something Kenson wrote a while back on astral signatures. Or it might've just been about astral forms. All mages see astral signatures differently - I'm not sure what the basis of this was, but I've got the quote back at home and I'll transcribe it when I get there. OTOH, he might've changed it for 3rd edition.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Sorry Bit didn't want to make it sound like I was flaming you =)

I'd like to see this quote, and then I'd like to see it in SR3 and then I'd like to point at it and laugh and banish it from my kingdom for ever and ever.

But I'd still like to see it.

Sunday.

[Euiscerati]

The rules never address any way of recording an Astral Signature, though in 'Initation' they make it clear that you would need to change your Aura and you get the idea that there must be some way to record Astral Signatures. Hey, SR not makign sense? Shocking. Make up your own rules, but ther eis nothign in the SR rules that state yoiu can record an Astral Signature. You can 'recognize' them but that certainly isn't the ability to replicate it in detail from memory. I might see someone and recognize them, but if I hadn't seen them, I wouldn't have had a strong enough memory of their appearance to give you a complete description. There'sa difference between a memory that is triggered by recognition and amemory that is so strong you can recall it at will.The SR rules clearly suggest that mages can recognize the signature if they come in contact againb, not have total recall of the Astral Signature.

A formula for Astral Signatures would be very similar to a spell formula. That would mean using similar rules. I've described how this would be like designing a focus 6 or 7 or 8 spel. Would you need 6-8 karma to 'learn' the signature from the formula? even if you house rule some way to record Astral Signatures, it still doesn't mean anything. What would it matter if after the fact, they recognized your astral signature? While breaking into Aztechnology, the mage wont assense your aura to see who you are, he'll cast spells. So even if they knew your Aura and hated you, Assening your Astral Signature would only occur after you're gone or dead or caught. If caught they can just cast a mind domination spell and know everythign about you, they don't need your sig. Now, if Astral Signatures could be used in Ritual Magic, then every mage would be very careful about using spells, especially high force spells and that would really bring mages and shaman back to earth with the other character types.

By the way, what about sustained spells and foci? Hiding your sig is given for instantaneous spells, but what about sustained spells? do you hide the trail once you've cast your spell or after you're done sustaining it? Woudl think right after you cast the spell but the rules don't explain that. Same with foci, can you hide the foci once you've activated it? Do foci leave their sigs and thus the bonded mages sig around? If so, suddenly there's a lot more astral polution.