illusion spells and security, mads, cyberscanners, chemsniffers, etc Options

[sir fwank]

say Runner is infiltrating random corporate building. Runner is physical masked force 5 with 3 successes, carrying a light pistol w/ 1 extra clip of explosive rounds, and is implanted with various cyberware. He's even got a stole ID card to trick the guard. so he gets in the building flashes his id to the guard and gets waved on. ahead he sees that he has to walk through a combo MAD, Cyberscanner, Chemsniffer. Runner, being naive about magic figures he's good to go and strolls on through the scanner arch. what happens?

personally, i think he trips all three, most likely. i don't think illusion spells cover anything that he is carrying. but is there some illusion spell that i missed or should there be one? and what about spirit concealment, would that work?

[hobgoblin]

do the normal checks for those detectors, physical mask only changes how you look not what you are (that the beauty of scanners, most are not image based). sure the physical mask spell can make that arm look normal to both cameras and people but that scanner, forget it :vegm: if not then you have one hell of a spell!

as for spirit consealment, only if the spirit was conjured inside the building (and i could swear that counjuring was a exclusive action)...

[Cain]

Which isn't to say some other illusion spell, like perhaps Trid Phantasm, couldn't cover all those aspects. However, physical mask is single-sense only, and all of those detectors aren't sight-based.

[hobgoblin]

trid phantasm may fool stuff like sight and sound but im not sure it will fool a metal detector :)

[sir fwank]

mmm...trid phantasm forgot about that one.

[Abstruse]

Here's a neat idea to take the heat off yourself when sneaking in with the normal commuter traffic...use Trid Fantasm to put a chunk of C-XII in the briefcase/pocket of someone a few people ahead of you in line, then use the diversion to sneak through the security chokepoint. Risky plan as there are several things that could go wrong, but what's the fun of a perfect plan?

Any thoughts?

The Abstruse One

[mayhem]

[Sunday_Gamer]

I'm gonna have to say mask covers most of those scanners as mentioned above.
Mask affects your physical characteristics, which means you could even mask yourself as you but with vd and fool medical scanners. You alter the physical characteristics of the subject and there's a whole lot of those and most of the scanners are looking for one of them.

Mind you you couldn't use the mask to imitate magical diseases and whatnot since those are not physical characteristics.

There are two schools of thought on magic and scanners.

1) The masking spell or in truth, illusion spell in general must have force equal to half the OR of a given object to affect it as per the magic vs OR rules. This assumes that all scanners subjected to illusion spell become their target and defaults to the rules on magic targeting objects.

2) The second school does not believe the magic vs OR rules were intended for illusion spells but were meant instead for when a spell is directly cast upon an object to reflect the difficulty of channeling mana through highly technological objects.
In this version, scanners based on "what" precisely they are looking for, may get certain rolls. In most cases, it is the living operator of a sensor who must make the roll. Rigged vehicles and drones resist as their operator.
Note as well that just because you CAN mimic any physical characteristics doesn't mean you know what they are.

EX: I cast my physical mask 5, scoring 6 successes. I describe it as " I make myself look like Mad Dog Murphy, the grumpy old orc. Could I mimic any medical conditions physical effects? Sure I could but I do have a clue what if any physical ailments plague old Mad Dog? If Mad Dogs friends have DNA samples and a machine that performs said test could my mask fool it? Sure it could but do I even have the remotest clue what Mad Dogs DNA looks like?!?
Characteristics can only be altered if you know what they are is my point I guess.

Needless to say, I am a proponent of option 2.

Sunday.

PS: Trid phantasm is amazing but it's casting difficulty and drain reflect that quite nicely.

[sir fwank]

for discussion purposes i'm going to post a few book things
p. 195 sr3
mask
the mask spell alters the target's voice, scent and other physical characteristics. the target assumes a physical appearance (of the same basic size and shape), chosen by the caster. Observers can make a Resistance Test to attempt to overcome the illusion. Mask affects the minds of viewers. Physical Mask creates an illusion that affects technological sensors as well.

p.53 mits
"mask is a multi-sense, minor change indirect illusion spell"

to Sunday:
so you are saying that physical mask can alter my DNA signature(for lack of a better word)?

and since mask alters voice can it then beat voice-stress analyzers, voice print maglocks, etc? i can see allowing this provided that characters have an adequate time to study a voice recording.

however i'm thinking if you allow it to alter your DNA then it should be able to alter fricken everything allowing you to beat ANY biometric lock system. perhaps if mask was classified as a Multi-Sense, Major Change Indirect Illusion" and actually it would only put the drain at S or +1S for physical, which is still a nice trade off for all of what it is going to do.

i think the DNA thing is pushing it, but as for other physical characteristics i think i could agree with your "as long as you know what it looks like" statement. Altering what something is and what something looks like is the difference between major and minor change to me. i can see altering my palm print because my palm is still my palm, but altering my Ares Predator to a...L shaped box of wood is something different. to the eyes it will look like a L shaped box, but if i try to carve it, or run it through an MAD it doesn't act like wood.

[Raptor1033]

i don't think he was trying to use mask to trick the other detectors into thinking he was who he was trying to be, i think he was trying to see if mask would cover up the scent of gunpowder for the chem sniffer. the presence of metal in the weapon for the MAD, and the presence of his cyber for the cyberdetector. i would rule that mask might cover up for the cyberdetector but you'd have to create yourself a new spell for the other two. perhaps something along the lines of "Conceal weapon and conceal explosives"

[KosherPickle]

[Sunday_Gamer]

Like I said, the way we use it, yes it could definitely alter your DNA but the mage casting the spell would need to know about that sort of stuff. If he was trying to imitate someone else, he would not only need to know a fair bit on DNA but he'd also need to have the subjects precise DNA sequence.

Also, we use mimicry skills as a prereq roll for any mask designed to replicate an existing person, the better the mimicry roll, the closer the match.

So in theory, a mage could give himself the appearance, smell, voice, fingerprint, retinal print, DNA sequencing etc etc of someone else, but he would need:

A good mimicry skill and a hell of a roll.
Working knowledge of the races biology.
More than working knowledge of the races DNA.
A copy of the targets fingerprints, retinal prints and DNA sequencing.

The rolls would be obscene, but in theory, possible.

Sunday.

[sir fwank]

and i thought shadowrun was broken before.

[Sphynx]

[The White Dwarf]

The spell Physical Mask is cast on the person, not his equipment. The chemical scanner would go off on the ammo. The cyberscanner would probably have to beat the spell in an OR/magic test as mentioned above. The MAD detector would go off as well on the gun, and the player if it made the same test.

Using trid phantasm here, or possible chaotic world on the sensors or something, would be a better option for trying to sneak through. However, if he were to simply leave his carry on equipment at the door and had a good spell going, it might not be so hard to walk through.

[Sphynx]

Wrong, Physical Mask is cast "around" the person, not "on" the person. This makes a huge difference. If you assume that the chemical scanner can detect the ammo, then you have to also make the SAME assumption that a camera can see an gun on an invisible person.

Indirect Illusions don't work like other spells. And since Inanimate Objects don't get to resist these types of spells, there's no resistance test either.

However, you DO have to indicate the exact specifications of your Mask when it's cast. It would make sense that you can only alter a number of properties up to the Force of the spell as well.

Sphynx

[BitBasher]

I would allow multi sense illusions to cover any input types (normal 5 senses) that a normal being has. But a Magnetic Anomoly Detector is not a normal sense, thus would not count IMHO. I would let them pass the chemsniffer. Of course this point is moot, characters hermetically seal their firearms and ammo in break away packaging when going through sensors like this in my game :D

[The White Dwarf]

Hmm, point made. Cant really argue with that comparison. If they ever make a SR4 they seriously need to make posts here on like every spell and piece of cyberware first to get the descriptions down perfect =) Silly nebulous spell descriptions!

[BitBasher]

hehe, addition, I would allow "nonstandard" senses to be added to a spell's effect for increased drain. IE: Magnetic Anomoly, Geiger counter...

[sir fwank]