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> Magic In The Shadows, Just a couple of questions
DrJest
post Jan 2 2005, 01:42 PM
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Finally managed to lay hold of a copy of this (let's hear it for second hand book shops - bunch of SR gear for about a pound a pop, God knows where it all came from). On a preliminary flip through, there were a couple of things I wanted to chat about..

Counterstrike adept power. Hmm. I've seen this one debated a few times on the boards (usually in the process of making an uber melee character), but I held off on commenting as I didn't have an up to date definition. Having read it...

This is one weird power. It seems to me to be entirely and solely a way of circumventing Magic Rating limits on the Improved Ability power. Having mulled it over a bit, I think I would actually delete it from the adept power list in my games; I can't get my head around how it works or why it's a good idea.

Enhance Aim spell. As a wannabee Gun Kata adept, this obviously drew my attention. I noted that the text says it can be used in conjunction with optical magnification (eg, presumably, cybereyes with that mod). Now, enhance aim has the standard range limit for detection spells (I wound up making an Extended variant for my last attempt at a Gun Kata adept), and anything at OptiMag ranges is likely to be outside that range. IIRC, magnification reduces the range category by one per step, and I can see a player arguing that it therefore brings a target within the range of an Enhance Aim spell. How do people feel about that one?

More questions, doubtless, as I continue to absorb things.
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Crusher Bob
post Jan 2 2005, 01:47 PM
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Nope, magical range is absolute and magnificaton dosen't make the tagets any closer...
Not that for short range stuff like pistols, a range category can be pretty short.

<beats brain to a bloody pulp>

...
So attaching a 8x or 12x scope to your predator is a great help for those ~50m pistol shots.
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Cochise
post Jan 2 2005, 02:21 PM
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QUOTE (DrJest)
This is one weird power. It seems to me to be entirely and solely a way of circumventing Magic Rating limits on the Improved Ability power.

Where are you taking that impression from?
All powers with an explicit rating are limited by Magic Rating.
The Counterstrike Power just isn't simultaniously limited by the skill rating of a particular skill, since it applies to all melee skills equally.
A magic 6 Adept can still have only 6 levels of that power ...

QUOTE
Enhance Aim spell. As a wannabee Gun Kata adept, this obviously drew my attention. I noted that the text says it can be used in conjunction with optical magnification (eg, presumably, cybereyes with that mod). Now, enhance aim has the standard range limit for detection spells (I wound up making an Extended variant for my last attempt at a Gun Kata adept)


Does this really matter? In most cases you'll end up fighting at ranges that don't need that extended range.
The really limiting parts of the spell are:
- Required force, since Force / 2 is the maximum it can give you as modifier
- Need for sustaining foci in order to actually use the spell (otherwise the +2 modifier for sustaining a spell will usually negate all gains from the spell)
- The fact that all detection spells can be resisted by the persons who are detected by the spell

QUOTE
and anything at OptiMag ranges is likely to be outside that range. IIRC, magnification reduces the range category by one per step, and I can see a player arguing that it therefore brings a target within the range of an Enhance Aim spell. How do people feel about that one?


Pistols (of any type), shotguns, SMGs, Tasers do have medium ranges that could profit from high force versions of that spell
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Mercer
post Jan 2 2005, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (Cochise)
QUOTE (DrJest)
This is one weird power. It seems to me to be entirely and solely a way of circumventing Magic Rating limits on the Improved Ability power.

Where are you taking that impression from?
All powers with an explicit rating are limited by Magic Rating.
The Counterstrike Power just isn't simultaniously limited by the skill rating of a particular skill, since it applies to all melee skills equally.
A magic 6 Adept can still have only 6 levels of that power ...

I think what he's saying is you could have 6 levels of Counterstrike and 6 levels of Improved Unarmed combat, and for the purposes of cs'ing, you'd have +12 dice.

Personally, I don't think its that unbalancing as its about a Phys Ad who is only good at one thing. That type of highly specialized character usually doesn't payoff in the long run.
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DrJest
post Jan 2 2005, 03:10 PM
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That's exactly what I meant, Mercer. I dunno, that power... it just kind of leaves me cold. Kind of lends itself to the Taunt-Bot style of play

"Come on, ganger 1! Hit me, you pussy!"

Swish
THWAP

"Come on, ganger 2! Hit me, you pussy!"

(Whereupon, of course, Ganger 2 pulls out a large-calibre handgun and pops the adept between the eyes while he postures... but I digress...)
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Sandoval Smith
post Jan 2 2005, 05:35 PM
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Actually, that's not really digressing, nor do I really see a problem with it. Counterstrike 6 + Improved Ability (Unarmed) 6 would take all six starting power points for an adept. It means that they are a superb melee fighter, especially if someone fights back. However, you perfectly illustrated the problem with making a character such a limited one trick pony. As soon as someone pulls a gun, they're screwed. Maybe it's just the type of game you play, but I've never been in one where there would be enough assured hand to hand combat to keep that kind of power selection from hamstringing me.

There's no way being a 'taunt-bot' would work in a game. I don't think those armed security guards are going to really care about going mano a mano, and you already illustrated what'll happens if that's the fighting style someone depends on.

I've also more often seen Counterstrike used to augment low Unarmed Skills, rather than bolster high ones. It gives them a better chance to hold off opposition while they try get into a more favorable position. I made a troll bodyguard once, who had Improved SMG, Counterstrike, and a collapsable quarterstaff. He also had a decent Unarmed skill, but his purpose was to keep people from getting to his employer, which meant he had a much better chance at being on the recieving end of melee (and other) attacks.
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DrJest
post Jan 2 2005, 11:53 PM
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In that situation, why not just buy Improved Unarmed then? It's no more expensive, and works for both attack and defence.
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mfb
post Jan 3 2005, 12:05 AM
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IA can only be taken as high as the base skill it improves. there's not such limit on counterstrike, and counterstrike also works for any melee weapon (including unarmed).
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Fortune
post Jan 3 2005, 12:06 AM
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An Adept character who spent all of his PP on Improved Unarmed and Counterstrike still does not have to be a 'one-trick-pony'. Sure he is a melee god, but nothing stops him from having other skills like Firearms, Athletics, Stealth, Etiquette, etc on a par with everyone else.

And there's always room for growth with Initiation.

Personally, I dislike Counterstrike, but it hasn't ever come up in my games.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 3 2005, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (DrJest)
Enhance Aim spell. As a wannabee Gun Kata adept, this obviously drew my attention. I noted that the text says it can be used in conjunction with optical magnification (eg, presumably, cybereyes with that mod). Now, enhance aim has the standard range limit for detection spells (I wound up making an Extended variant for my last attempt at a Gun Kata adept), and anything at OptiMag ranges is likely to be outside that range.

6 meters is Medium pistol range. 3 is a better TN than 4.

~J
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Joe Outside
post Jan 3 2005, 09:34 AM
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I always saw counterstrike as a way of saving combat pool for other possibly more neccessary things. It allows you to have some extra dice on the defense against someone faster (I rarely get speed mods for my adepts) keeping compat pool dice for your attacks and defense against people shooting. But then, I doubt I've ever had more than three counterstrike dice.
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