Build/Repair, Just curious... Options

[noneuklid]

Anyone see any particular reason for keeping Electronics, Electronics B/R, and Computer B/R as seperate skills?

[Fortune]

I combine the two Electronics skills into one, but keep the Computer B/R as seperate.

[Spook]

I always figured Elecronics and B/R as the same, good to see that i'm not alone there. Computer and computer B/R though, are very different. A high computer skill lets you hack systems, write programs, do searches better, etc, where comp B/R would (in modern-day terms) be the ability to put components in properly, know what cables go where, what screws fit what and so on.

Granted, many people with computer skills also have high B/R skills, but they're not the same.

[Kagetenshi]

While I might like them to be the same as far as skill point costs go, I see Electronics and Electronics B/R as separate skills. The ability to design and build a circuit and the ability to use said circuit to greatest effectiveness are not, in my mind, facets of the same skill.

~J

[Fortune]

Most of the listed uses for Electronics really qualify as B/R type applications. I really don't see the need for a 'Program the VCR' skill, but when it comes to messing with circuitry, that is pretty much what Electronics covers. It's a minor change in my opinion, and maybe not for everyone. Works for me in my games though.

[noneuklid]

[Kagetenshi]

Computer B/R and Electronics B/R are quite different as well, IMO. Then again, in a system where first aid and brain surgery can be practiced by the same base skill the distinction may not be terribly important.

~J

[Crusher Bob]

I think dentistry ad vetrinary medicine fit under the biotech skill too

[noneuklid]

Yes, Shadowrun. Where using a nine-inch blade attached to the forearm and using a knife represent incompatable skills, proficiency in the English roman alphabet does not confer proficiency in the Spanish roman alphabet, and swimming above and below water require different skills- but medicine is furnished by the complex process of, "Hey you, fix me!"

[Kagetenshi]

[noneuklid]

If you can write English and you can speak Spanish, you can write Spanish IRL. Mastery of the romanic alphabet means phonetic competence. Admittedly, you'll probably mispell a bit- but what you write will be comprehensible to others, and you'll be able to read what they write. On the other hand, a shadowrunner who grows up illiterate in Atlzan and moves to Seattle and learns to speak and write English gets a Spanish Read/Write skill of nada.

And Athletics covers swimming, escape artist-ry, and lifting weights. Would we say that swimming has more or less in common with 'escape artist' than diving?

[Kagetenshi]

Would you say that, oh, maybe a +2 TN penalty might be appropriate for trying to write Spanish with knowledge of English R/W and spoken Spanish?

And yes, I would say that swimming has more in common with escape artistry than with diving. Both of those are physically demanding pursuits. With diving, if it's physically demanding you're clearly not prepared to be diving in those particular conditions. Fundamentally the harder you work the shorter the time you can stay down.

~J

[noneuklid]

Since the language groupings are linked, not the alphabets (p91 SR3), it's a default to Intelligence (+4). +2 is potentially appropriate (+1 would probably be better), but cannonically wrong.

Diving is a BOD-linked skill, as is Athletics. While I agree there is a lot of technical knowledge involved in diving that is not required in surface swimming, and likewise agree that breathing underwater the same way one does while doing the breast-stroke is foolish at best and suicidal at worst, the same 'body knowledge' applies to both sets of activities- comfortable movement in a liquid.

[Kagetenshi]

I think it's appropriate that it's BOD-linked, as if you're in better shape you can do more without exerting yourself. I still hold that it's unlike what Athletics covers.

I'm at work, so I can't check the language thing.

~J

[Solstice]

I have two people in my group who are electrical engineering students. I will see what they say about combining these skills, if they think it's justifiable. I'd like to see it in my game too.

[Moon-Hawk]

Admittedly, operating an electronic device and building/cracking/etc an electronic device are very different skills. However: I wouldn't use Electronics to operate an electronic rock analyzer, I'd use Geology. I wouldn't use Electronics to use a MRI machine, I'd use Biotech. I wouldn't use Electronics to use a Battletac unit, I'd use Small Unit Tactics. Pretty much any use of an electronic device will not use the Electronics skill, it will use the skill related to whatever field the electronic device was designed for. What very few uses of the Electronics skill wouldn't apply to any other skill are very closely related to Electronics B/R. I think that it would be fine to combine Electronics and Electronics B/R.
As for folding Computer B/R into that, you're streching a bit. Some aspects of the skills are admittedly similar. They should be in the same group and be able to default at +2 (as I believe they are, IIRC), but they're still fairly different. (At least as different as rifles vs. assault rifles) So Computer B/R should probably be kept separate.
In summary: I feel that combining Electronics and Electronics B/R is just fine, but Computer and Computer B/R are both separate, but all three would be in the same related group.
If anyone cares, I have a degrees in Electrical Engineering and Bioelectronics.

[Gyro the Greek S...]

I have a question...

Does anyone have a terribly good reason to keep Electronics and Electronics B/R seperate? Or is there consensus on the it doesn't matter issue?

[Solstice]

[Cakeman]

The reason i keep them separate is that I consider Electronics be the skill you use mostly for electronic warfare, i.e. finding the enemy and concealing yourself, and the B/R skill is just that - B/R.

[Moon-Hawk]

Interesting point. But at the same time, I know all about gain & frequencies, and (although I don't know your field) I'm betting that I couldn't get the device to do anything meaningful at all, since I have no idea what type of input I'm supposed to give it, what the output means, or how to interpret any of it.
One might be a complimentary skill for the other, it's just a question of which one. I'm suggesting that Electronics could be the complimentary skill to your unnamed field, and would help you to use your device, but not the other way around since all the electronics knowledge in the world won't help you operate the device if you have no understanding of what it is to be used for.
So your specialized skill is still the primary skill, some electronics knowledge might just help a little bit.

Also, having knowledge about what gain means and how frequencies work is much more a thing learned by Electronics B/R, in my opinion, than Electronics. Sure, knowledge of electronics tells you what these basic terms mean, but it is in learning to design electronics that you understand these terms fully and learn how to manipulate them and what effect they have on device operation. While they are facets of both "skills", I suggest that even this knowledge should belong more to Electronics B/R.

So what I'm saying is, Electronics B/R (still not Electronics) might be a useful complimentary skill for you to use with your device in your field, some other skill more directly related to your field would still be the primary skill. But not knowing your field I realize that that's a pretty weak claim.

[Moon-Hawk]

[Cakeman]

I think there's a specialization to electronics called electronic warfare if I'm not mistaken...

but then again, this all boils down to how narrow a skill is allowed to be. As stated before, biotech is a very broad skill in Shadowrun but maybe, just maybe that's becase this is a part of the game that the runner tends not to focus on. Had the game been called "general hospital" there'd been a totally different set of skills, and one of them would have been "firearms"...

So if electronics is way to narrow, it ought to be gone. It stays in my games, and if someone comes up with more instances were it would be useful, it'll gain importance. But yes, I think it's kinda narrow right now... just buy the specialization ;)

[iPad]

[noneuklid]

It seems to me that the theoretical knowledge required to operate ECM/ECCM and other broadcast or surveilance gear would be possessed by someone who is familiar with the electromagnetic fields that affect or power the devices she builds; basically, electronic warfare would be a macroscopic use of B/R, with the communication network in question being a wireless metadevice.

Likewise, Hardware is a specialization of Computer (not Computer B/R). It stands to reason that an Electronics-proficient character can put together and take apart computer components using that knowledge, but full understanding or designing new ones from scratch requires the 'theoretical knowledge' mentioned on SR3 p85- which in this case would be the Computer active skill or related background skills.

[iPad]