the stopwatch method, adding some sweat to combat Options

[Oro]

when i run rpgs i use a stopwatch to allow the characters a certain amount of time to figure out what they want to do in high stress situations. ive got a really nice 7 jewel swiss wind-up.

if they dont tell me what they want to do before times-up then they just sit there and act stupid.

in SR, though ive never run it, i would use the reaction score.

at first players HATE it, they feel like theyre being cheated outa something, i still cant figure that out. but after the first couple gaming sessions they learn to really like it, it adds a great feel to combat and a good amount of realism too.

id just like to hear some thoughts on what people think of this method.

[ThreeGee]

How would you translate the reaction score to a time exactly?

[Oro]

just give them that number of seconds

[Fortune]

So if the Sammy has 4 actions in a turn (which in Shadowrun is approximately three seconds), you give them .75 seconds to decide on each action?

Or do they get 12 seconds to decide each action, while the Mage with a reation of 5 has to come up with his actions in 5 seconds?

[Austere Emancipa...]

It's the same ole argument of the Player's Mind vs. Character's Mind.

Let's say a computer nerd-type plays a grizzled ex-special ops mercenary type. With this method, you are forcing the player, with no experience of combat and little understanding of what's going on, to tell you what the character, with a lot of combat experience and likely a very good understanding of what's going on, is going to do. This means it's both unfair and not necessarily any more realistic than giving everyone nearly unlimited time (until the GM blows a fuse).

I have often wondered about how to implement something like that in a fair and semi-realistic manner without fucking up game balance or anything else. It's really difficult. For example, if someone asks for a quick description during their action, it really isn't their fault if it takes me 10 seconds to describe whatever they're glancing at. Simply making sure everybody understands what's going on as well as their characters would can take a lot of time, and lack of that understanding often comes up only when people begin to describe their actions.

Whatever works for you, though. I'm sure it can add a lot of feel to combat. I would suggest basing the time allowed on something like Combat Pool or allowing more time with Edges and certain powers/ware/skills, though, to allow the tough guys more time to figure out their actions than the wimpy face.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Fortune]

Yeah, I edited in a different and still inane option.

[Mercer]

(Edited for Relevance)

I use something similar to this. Typically, I give a player the "usual" amount of time to say their action, say 3-5 seconds. Any more stunned silence than that, I usually start a countdown, like "5 seconds til you lose your action... 4... 3... 2... 1..." If they can't think of anything, they can always hold an action so I don't feel like there's a real penalty to it. Mainly, I started it because in a big group, combat takes long enough as it is. Having everyone mull over their responses just slows it down to a crawl, and its hard to maintain a sense of urgency that way.

Its also a pet peeve of mine when players take too long to decide on their actions. It is combat, and its supposed to be quick and chaotic. I look at really putting a lot of thought into what you should do and the possible consequences as bad role-playing, or metagaming. Its not a game of chess where you're supposed to be able to stare at the board envisioning the possibilities. Its more like a game of speed chess, where you have three seconds or you lose your turn.

Besides that, depending on whats going on, players have between 2 and 10 minutes between their action and the next action (in a game with six players, three of which were learning the rules, it was routinely 15 minutes between actions, but that was a special case). Theres no reason why they should waste everybody elses' time when their turn comes up. Thats just inconsiderate.

[Oro]

no, i mean that you give them their reaction score to decide every time they get to act, if they ask for a description then it stops the clock, if they ask for rules info then it stops the clock, if they just sit there and try to figure out what to do then the clock keeps going. its really not unfair cause youre basing the time on a stat that should equate to how fast their character thinks, also they have time while everyone else acts to figure out what to do.

this method also cuts way down on out-of-game talk and speeds up the game quite a bit

[Fortune]

So you penalize the characters with lower reaction scores, and give the speed Sammy even more of an advantage than the extra actions he has during each turn by giving him more time to make decisions?

[Oro]

yuppers, he thinks faster and is prolly more combat savvy

[Fortune]

Which is already reflected in his extra actions in the same amount of time.

Not to mention that this is just not always the case. just because someone has jacked up reflexes does not mean he is any more competent in combat, or more experienced, or even that he thinks faster. He just reacts faster.

A merc with 20 years of combat experience but no enhanced reflexes is probably much more comfortable in a combat situation that the young but newly-enhanced street sam.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Reaction isn't the best descriptor of situation awareness, though. Again, consider the ex-specops merc type char. He might have only Boosted-3 with a Reaction of 7, usually going twice in a CT. On the other hand, he might have a Tactical Computer implant (for whatever weird reason), which allows him a whopping Combat Pool of 13 in many situations. His character background describes him as having a lot of combat experience and being level-headed in stressful situations.

Now consider Mr Speedfreak, an insane, jumpy hunk of meat and metal. He has a whopping REA of 16 and always goes 4 or 5 times in a CT -- but his "combat experience" mostly consists of beating up old women and the odd punk kid. Because he's stupid and not a very balanced person, he only has a CP of 8 despite his amazing QUI.

For some reason Mr Speedfreak has more than twice the team to describe all his actions than Mr Grizzled Veteran, and he gets to do it twice as often. From an in-game point of view, it seems like Mr Speedfreak is far more in control of all aspects of his and other people's actions than Mr Grizzled Veteran, while the opposite would make more sense.

This is why would rather include at least CP in the calculations if I did use such a system.

[toturi]

As a House Rule, I have no objections against giving someone with higher initiative some form of advantage. But let us examine the situation as it is now:

The faster person can delay his action. The slower person already has the in-game disadvantage of not knowing what the faster person is doing. The faster person can choose to preempt the slower person in such a way that the slower person's action becomes moot.

Using your Reaction timer, I'd allow the faster person his Reaction in seconds to decide his action. If he decides to delay however, he gets only the Reaction of the poor guy who had to wait.

For example,

Mr Speedy has Reaction 10 and Mr Slow has Reaction 4. Speedy rolls higher initiative, but he delays. So when Mr Slow decides to act on his turn, Mr Speedy has only 4 seconds to decide how he is going to preempt Mr Slow.

This would curb the situation AE had mentioned and remember this, combat is resolved from the highest Initiative to the lowest, Mr Slow's player (acting last) has the longest time (total) to decide what he wants to do.

[Wounded Ronin]

While it might not entirely make sense or be fully justifiable in any way, I think that the stopwatch method nevertheless has the potential to make combat riotously fun. It would be really exciting.

[Mercer]

[Tziluthi]

Although this innovation wouldn't be so great as a broad range rule, it seems like a good way to speed up the game, add a bit of desperation and exitement to the combat (i.e. realism, if not in the rules at least in the atmosphere), and generally make the game fun for everyone, just so long as the players aren't anally-retentive, rule-lawyering pedants. Cool idea, Oro.

[Jrayjoker]

I've tried this and it just doesn't work with my group. Other groups may have a different opinion. Perhaps the best way to do it would be to give everyone the same amount of time to decide and declare their actions in the first initiative, then request that in subsequent initiatives everyone be prepared to declare immediately because of the delay inherent in game play (usually a couple minutes +/-).

[Jaruen]

You guys who say that you are typically thinking ahead to your next action seem to me to be a wonderful minority in the game. You would not believe how many times I or one of my friends, while running a combat, are met with blank stares from someone who just spent the entire round of combat joking with another player about how they are going to fart, or moon the bad guy, or where they are going to lunch. I thought this was just in my group of friends, but then I moved for a bit, got a new bunch of friends, played SR, entered combat, and voila, there is that deer-in-the-headlights again. So if you and your whole group don't seem to have this problem, I have just one request. Move to nearby, and let me play in your group?????!!!!!??!!??!!??!!

[Kagetenshi]

Whereabouts are you?

~J

[Aku]

or, perhaps the more apt question, would be how OLD are you and your friends?

Seems very sophmorish to me... and i'm only 21...


mooning the enemies? who are they, william wallace and his scotts?

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Tarantula]

[Solstice]

[Solstice]