 Master Shake For Shadowrun Product Line Developer, The Future Of Shadowrun |
  |
 Jan 11 2005, 02:44 PM
Post
#121
|
|
|
Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151  |
Androids are beyond the science and technology of Shadowrun as demonstrated -- AI takes a massively complex computer system to evolve, it cannot be intentionally created, it seems. Without AI, androids are just human-looking robots. While I think they could exist, they seem rather pointless. The human form is not really that great for most industrial-type work, which is what robots are used for, by and large, and you acn probably hire someone to work for minimum wage to take care of your house or work in a brothel for a lot cheaper than you can buy a robot for the same purpose, so I don't really see why anyone would develop them.
|
 |
 
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jan 11 2005, 04:15 PM
Post
#122
|
||
|
Guests |
Shapeshifters are inhuman. Tech isn't at that point (even in the setting I play in which mundane tech like simsense is more advanced and robots are useful), and frankly there aren't enough (quasi-)sentient AIs in SR to provide a reason for making them PCs, whereas shapeshifters-- non-humans that they are-- probably number well into the thousands worldwide amongst the great variety of shapeshifter types. But that's an editorial decision. One that was made well after the existence of shapeshifters was made known, and probably due in no small part to a demand for shapeshifter PCs. I don't see rules for Sasquatches or Merrow even though they are sentient (Sasquatches for sure, Merrows and Nagas have been strongly suggested), or any of the Infected outside of Ghouls. But you can play a Drake--a creature with roots in ED and whose existence was made known in SR several years before Threats 2 came out, and weren't made available to be PCs until DotSW. Maybe the demand will eventually allow for Vampire PCs. But to play androids in SR, there generally have to be androids in SR. The closest we have now are cyberzombies and the robots in SR, the latter of which aren't sufficiently "self-motivational" to justify them being PCs. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2005, 05:24 PM
Post
#123
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
cynic, nearly every RPG is built with combat in mind first and foremost. take a look at the combat/non-combat skill split in SR. look at how much time is spent on combat- and combat-related rules, in SR. and, hey, look at that--the combat skills and the non-combat skills use the same basic mechanic, just like d20!
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 11 2005, 06:23 PM
Post
#124
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863 |
Very good point. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2005, 07:18 PM
Post
#125
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 665 Joined: 20-November 03 Member No.: 5,834 |
Actually it'd piss me off to use different mechanics for them, you want to simplify a game as much as possible.
While I have no facts and figures here, looking at local stores I get the idea the D20 flood is nearing it's end, I'm seeing more White Wolf and more true DnD stuff now and the D20 section has been shrinking at my local store. There still isn't any shadowrun books aside from used things that show up now and then though. Still I think this would be a bad time to jump on the ship, when it might be sinking. On the other hand I think SR could stand to go to version 4, if FanPro was able to handle that much work. There are a lot of goofy mechanics in SR, a lot of moments when even the most die-hard dumpshocker has admitted the writers must have been consuming vast amounts of crack when they wrote the books, and plenty of extremely exploitable holes in the system. Come to think of it I'm not sure I've ever played an SR game without some houserules to fix the more blatant stupidities. A few examples: The wolfhound (Rigger 3, page 177 is a premier scouting drone. That's why it has sensors 1 and could, on a good roll, notice an aircraft carrier. Ditto for the Macguyver robot later, designed for search and rescue even though it's sensors are so weak it won't find anything but a cyberzombie. And hey, let's give it a demolitions since nothing says "I'm here to rescue you" like throwing a satchel charge at them. Giving it, say, biotech would be absurd for a rescue vehicle. Under the given grenade and launch weapons rules a blind monkey defaulting to it's intelligence 1 (With a smartlink to get the TN under 8) has a 100% chance of landing an time-link minigrenade within 6 meters of it's target, and a 50% chance of hitting within 3 meters. Why bother with a launch weapons skill at all? Personally I find the rules for using skills and defaulting irritating as hell. Skill 6, attribute 6 should be better than skill 6, attribute one, not just more expensive (And set up in a way to encourage min-maxing to boot). On top of that having a low skill is often a death sentence and in many cases defaulting is actually better than a skill of just 1 or 2, at the very least it will avoid the heavy percentage of critical failures. The game really needs to be accessable to new players. When I picked up the new book for the first time I tried to study it for several hours, then called my players and told them we were going to have no magic (Except Adepts), no vehicles, and no matrix just so the game would actually be played that week. Note that this doesn't mean I think Master Shake should be doing it, nor do I demand these things be done. But if all these things were fixed in SR4 (And I think a new edition would be needed to handle them all) it would make me happy. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 07:48 PM
Post
#126
|
|||||||
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
No. People who have been with the game for quite some time (also known as 'hard-core fans') lose big time as the system is adapted to whatever rules or even world structure those aspired new players would desire (as guessed by management, sinde marketing isn't even close to knowing as much about customers as to make accurate prognosis on customer behavior, especially in a fringe clientele such as P&P RP systems). It is far more likely that, in the end, more long-term fans would let go of Shadowrun (and not buy their books any more) than new players would be attracted away from other systems. And since these players are, at best, only partially intereted in Shadowrun, they wouldn't be as active buyers as the hardcore fans were. Bottom line: not a very viable idea.
Ex-fucking-cuse me? Video games are to replace books? Are you for real? I kind of having a hard time that *playing* Webster's will get me a word explained in a better way, or that *playing* Atkins' Biochemistry will teach me the Krebs cycle, glycolysis/glyconeogenesis or any other pathway more efficiently than a book. Also, I have a VERY hard time imagining Bible - the game (or it's sequel Bible II - Return of the Messiah). Nor can I imagine any serious SciFi or any story telling, really, being consumed oprimarily in video games. The medium may change, yes. Paper hasn't been the first medium where writing was presented on, nor is it the be-all end-all. It will, in time, be replaced. The form, however, of the novel, the textbook, and the poem, will remain. they haven't changed much since they were first conceived, and will stay with humanity for as long as complex thoughts and stories are to be told. Maybe new styles will grow, and maybe the length of the text will vary, but it will NEVER be replaced by *video games*. This is a technophile's illusion, much like how some scifi authors in the 80s believed video lessons would replace books. So? what happened? We have 2005 now, and I still have five 2 meter * 80 cm shelves containing books of all kinds in my place - and I know people who have far more. And unless video games can ovver true virtual worlds - and this is a looong way off, mind you - there will be P&P games. It is a bit early for SR's devs to worry about Matrix-like technology, isn't it? As for your comments on how shadowrun needs to find "back" to it's dystopian, Syndicate Wars-esque roots ... well, I guess you're not too familiar with the world after all for saying this. Shadowrun isn't "high" cyberpunk in any way. I always, for that matter, liked Shadowrun over Cybergeneration (and SW-esque worlds) because it took a more realistic approach. That is it's roots, and that is it's soul. Not "high" cyberpunk with dragons and mojo thrown in. And what about all this blowing things up you mention? I personally like my shadowrun more sneaky, stealthy, and only one shootout in a session, not a constant shoot'n'slay killfest. Not only do I think combat is slow in SR (or any other RP system, when compated to the real thing at least), but it also tends to be really boring if all your characters ever do is walk around and gun down stuff. I mean, come on, if I wanted that, then I would play a video game (like Killzone or Halo 2, two very decent shooters). If I felt like playing with people, I'd take that game online. No need to get together with my gaming group, dig out all the books, and start rolling dice. P&P RPing needs to offer something better than such video games. Like storytelling, cooperatively, in a group. Someone once said that roleplaying is half impürovised theater, half cooperative story writing, sith the occasional burst of gambling thrown in. That perfectly sums it up. Oh, and don't chicken out, respond! You started this post fully well knowing what kind of responses you'd get. Show you have some balls and stand up for what you wrote! |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Mar 11 2005, 07:57 PM
Post
#127
|
|
|
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Holy motherfucking thread resurrection, Batman.
Why the hell did you do this? What possessed you to think it was good idea? |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 07:58 PM
Post
#128
|
|
|
Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
At least he put forth a passable arguement.
Now lets let this die. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 08:31 PM
Post
#129
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 227 Joined: 18-August 03 Member No.: 5,513 |
Frylock needs to deliver a serioius ass-whooping...
I like the game rules as they are, no d20 please! |
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Mar 11 2005, 08:38 PM
Post
#130
|
||
|
Guests |
I found a new sig quote. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 11 2005, 09:11 PM
Post
#131
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
If you look at the first posts in this thread, you can virtually see how tired everyone got. There´s just no end to the amount of bashing Master Shake deserves for this, so no one could bring themselves to even start, at first.
I guess hermit just needed to releive some of his aggressions for some reason? Must be a satisfying target, if nothing else. :) |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 09:22 PM
Post
#132
|
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Hehe, yeah ... particularily that "videogames will replace books" thing ticked me off. I mean, really. I am old enough to remember the craze about Video. Sheesh. Every time a new medium shows up, everyone wants to bury the book. Remember e-books? Any of you have one? And we're internet junkies, if anyone, we ought to only use e-books by now. :P
Just something that hadn't been adressed before. Yes, I read through the entire thing. Also, yay, I be quoted! :biggrin: :grinbig: :wobble: :rollin: :spin: |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 09:31 PM
Post
#133
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
wow, posting really late on this one, but, yeah, let's not make Shadowrun d20. I like not having to be pigeon-holed into a character class. And that look on a player's face when they hear those 15-20+ dice in your hands rattle around just before you drop them on the table is priceless.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 09:45 PM
Post
#134
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
hermit: :D :D Man. That book thing is hilarious to be sure. Just as mindless as the moral panic that arises with every new medium or art form. The worst part is how sure the people expressing these thoughts are of their truth.
Besides, book sales have been increasing steadily the last few years at least (read it on the internet, but still). |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 09:54 PM
Post
#135
|
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Exactly my point ... with Amazon (curious, eh? One of the best known, internet-based firms - one fo the few who survived the bubble - deals mainly in books, a medium that the Internet supposedly made obsolete ...), books are far more accessible, adn with the internet being able to gather information about books, potential readers learn of books that might interest them far more efficiently than before the internet. Hell, if it wasn't for the internet, I would never have known a couple of my favourite authors even existed!
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 09:59 PM
Post
#136
|
|||
|
Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
Ermm... I use e-books.... I read them at least three times a week during board meetings, usually more often. I'm currently half way through Algernon Blackwood's The Garden of Survival. Is that bad? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 11 2005, 10:03 PM
Post
#137
|
|||
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Why am I so reminded of that old song back in the 80's? 'Video killed the Radio Star...' *starts humming to the fragging tune* :P |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Mar 11 2005, 10:04 PM
Post
#138
|
|
|
Karma Police Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,358 Joined: 22-July 04 From: Gothenburg, SE Member No.: 6,505 |
I buy Shadowrun pdf´s. And I occationally listen to audio books. Litterature has found new media lately. That´s a fact. But their still books, right?
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 10:29 PM
Post
#139
|
|||||||
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
No, I just haven't met anyone who used e-books before!
They sell SR PDFs? What books do they sell? This WOULD be handy for sourcebooks ... are SR PDFs less expensive than books? And where can I get them?
Yay! Hey, I loved that song back then ... I even like it now! *puts in 80s compilation CD* |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Mar 11 2005, 10:32 PM
Post
#140
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 11:06 PM
Post
#141
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Yeah, video totally killed the radio star. Thats why theres so many channels that play music videos all the time, and radio is a barren and useless medium.
I hate MTV. Its a joke. |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 11:17 PM
Post
#142
|
|
|
The King In Yellow Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,922 Joined: 26-February 05 From: JWD Member No.: 7,121 |
Indeed. And there's nothing like watching Video Casettes while driving to work. :P
Or, for that matter watching a Video while you read a damn book. Because, guess what, I need music whenever I am reading something, so I need *two* obsolete media at the same time! Man, I feel so fossil ... |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 11:31 PM
Post
#143
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Portable recorded media killed the radio star.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 11:33 PM
Post
#144
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Thats a relatively accurate assessment.
|
|
|
|
|
Mar 11 2005, 11:28 PM
Post
#145
|
|||
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
MTV plays music videos? I lack sufficient command of the English language to articulate how much I hate MTV. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 5th August 2026 - 02:37 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.