 Master Shake For Shadowrun Product Line Developer, The Future Of Shadowrun |
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 Jan 8 2005, 02:13 AM
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#26
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Runner  Group: Members Posts: 3,066 Joined: 5-February 03 Member No.: 4,017  |
I still stand in support of Shadowrun D30.
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Jan 8 2005, 02:27 AM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 138 Joined: 1-September 02 From: France Member No.: 3,208 |
My calendar is pretty messed up... I was sure it wasn't april 1st yet...
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Jan 8 2005, 02:54 AM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, but the divide between rich and poor is much wider than it was in previous times. i guess i'm defining 'dystopian' not by how unhappy the have-nots are, but by how happy the haves are. i'm strongly opposed to SR d20. i like d20, but i prefer SR's system for playing SR. any version of SR published in d20 would feel watered-down and stupidized to most veteran SR players, no matter how many cool and innovative game mechanics the publishers came up with to capture the SR feel. |
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Jan 8 2005, 03:01 AM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
SR D20, huh? Master Shake, you make Baby Jesus cry.
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Jan 8 2005, 03:02 AM
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#30
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
I used to play Deadlands....and when I saw the D20 version, I nearly broke down and cried. The Mad Scientist just was lobotomized... (well, more than usual) One of the coolest parts of the scientist was actually drawing the schematics you were attempting to build. bleh...no more in D20. I still remember trying to make plastic explosive using bee honeycombs and dynamite...If I remember correctly, I failed so spectacularly that at the start of the campaign all my facial hair was burned off.
Personally, I like rolling drekloads of D6s myself...I own 4+ cubes of dice, be a shame to not use 'em...besides, I'm a huge Warhamster 40K player (5 armies), and that still uses the drekloads of D6 system too...so I'm used to it. Besides, the SR system is dystopian enough, especially if the GM concentrates on the dystopian elements. Forcing everything to confirm to a single line ruins a lot of the fun of determining your own fate. And yes, I voted "or" |
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Jan 8 2005, 03:09 AM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 124 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,812 |
I completely disagree with the need to draw D20 players to Shadowrun. D20 players can get into Shadowrun, or they can not. D20 players do not make or break a game. I have to say that I have little respect at all for basically every D20 player I have met thus far, although that may just be a local phenomenon.
I guess I am like every other consumer when I say that I will keep buying Shadowrun books as long as they're good. I will stop when they are crap, and to be honest I am completely happy with the writing thus far. I own every Shadowrun book with a few first edition exceptions, and I have liked the SR2 writing, and I like the SR3 writing. I can see the change as the writers have changed and evolved and I like what they've done and also where they seem to be going. I don't think we need to elevate one single fan to Godliness in order to save SR. I think the SR writers are doing just fine without him. I know that the day the writers release a D20 edition, or say in the front of a book that "this book is an effort to tap into the lucrative D20 market" and change the rules to that aim is the day I stop buying Shadowrun books forever, and I suspect I am not alone. Shadowrun has a unique system which is easily the best I have ever encountered, and I've been playing for some time and I have had a few games of most systems. I like that it's vague enough that you can cinematically fill in the blanks. I like that it is fairly deadly, that fights can be as cool or fast paced or deadly as you want. I like that as a GM I can improvise NPCs quickly because the rules are simple enough to do so. I like that there basically isn't any situation, or combat, or event which you can't cater for in the Shadowrun rules. I feel that the SR3 line has thus far been nothing short of inspired. I do not see the need for any sort of radical rule change, nor do I see the need for a re-release of the Companion-type books. SR3 is still new and cool and is being done well. SR4 would be nothing short of a money-grubbing gimmick. I agree that the SOTA books are a good idea. I like that the "Shadows of" books are not the sole focus of the sourcebook releases because, to be honest, I will write a game for an exotic locale every now and then but at least 75 percent of the games I write remain in the setting in which it started, being (usually) LA, Seattle or New Orleans. In terms of the game world, I do not feel we need a regular supply of world changing events. There was a period of SR2 and SR3 where you defined your game by whether it was post- or pre-events, and I have to say that it was not good. I didn't like the fact that you described your game by saying "post Arcology but pre-comet". I like that the world changes and in a well thought-out and constructed way, but I do not think the game needs a regular event of significance in order to grow. I have the ability to think on my own and this enables me to write games for my players, and I like inspiration from Fanpro (and trust in them to have good ideas) but do not need them to do my thinking for me. I am a fan of the game world as it stands but I think the game benefits from well thought out sourcebooks and tech books just as much as it benefits from another Wake of the Comet type book. There was very little material of any merit at all in Master Shake's post. |
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Jan 8 2005, 03:17 AM
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#32
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
That's true, which is what I though dystopian meant: divided world. But it means the miserable world - which applies to all of human existence... that's what drives the damn thing forwards.
Wait, you're saying the haves were happier than the have-nots at one point, but now they're not as happy as the have-nots? I'm not sure I agree that anyone is happier or less happy than historically.
Me too.
Ah, but it's so how reality is. We're post-Cold War entering Terror War, now (meet the new boss, same as the old boss)... That doesn't mean you need to tie your game to the events directly, but they make handy markers in terms of tech and background. |
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Jan 8 2005, 03:34 AM
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#33
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,640 Joined: 6-June 04 Member No.: 6,383 |
My response to the first post: no.
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Jan 8 2005, 03:37 AM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 596 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,112 |
You know the word Utopia? It means paradise. Dystopia is the opposite.
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Jan 8 2005, 04:44 AM
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#35
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I vote "or" because frankly I live by the idea that 90% of everything is crap...And for the most part in shadowrun only about 10% is crap. So life is good. Besides this guy is crazy.
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Jan 8 2005, 04:44 AM
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#36
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
Which means any setting you choose to be in is a dystopia, just by English technicalities. Opposite of utopia? Not a utopia. So, therefore, life is a dystopia. (Really, really vague and roundabout, but if you look at it for a second, it works.) To be honest, all of the points were so far off base I think that you're (the first poster) just here to sow dissension amongst the forumites. What you've instead succeeded in doing was to mark yourself as nothing more than a wordmonger -- and a bad one at that. SRd20 would be murder to the game. The entire idea of the game is that it is not d20. I quote from the FAQ on http://www.shadowrunrpg.com:
Should I be more clear? More articulate? There will be no D20 Shadowrun as long as FanPro holds the reins. Also:
Why does the system need a fourth edition? For background updates? Why, that's preposterous! That's exactly what a sourcebook is for, and in fact is what is being used in things like the "Shadows of..." series. In fact, the "Shadows of..." series is not on countries, but on where countries are according to what we know as of January 2005. Hence "Shadows of" and not "North America Sourcebook." Instead, it talks about the area that we know as Germany and describes who is in power at the time, what's happened since the writing, so on and so forth. It is not a "Germany still exists as a country, and this is what's what." It is a "this is where Germany was. This is who is now in power. These are the sects of people clamoring for power" and so on and so forth. Please. Think before typing. Everything you have just offered us is completely against what the world stands for. You want to define more dystopia? Do it yourself in your own games with your descriptions. Don't expect FanPro to write your games for you. |
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Jan 8 2005, 04:49 AM
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#37
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Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
Yeah, I'm pretty sure one of the design goals in 1989 was to "not be like that d20 game" released more than 10 years later. ;) |
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Jan 8 2005, 04:50 AM
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#38
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Utopia means something on the lines of "No where".Dystopia in an odd way means, something along the lines of "not no where"....
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Jan 8 2005, 04:50 AM
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#39
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King of the Hobos Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,117 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 127 |
To paraphrase Henry Rollins, "I wish I could sue people for time back on my life."
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Jan 8 2005, 04:52 AM
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#40
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
When I refer to d20, I also refer to D&D simply because that is what d20 stemmed off of. Yes, there was a popularity spike recently in d20 products, but the popularity of D&D has been around since the 70s. |
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Jan 8 2005, 04:58 AM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 369 Joined: 1-September 03 From: New York State Member No.: 5,563 |
Refine the rules so that you can run many styles of games? The type of game is decided by atmosphere. Man, for a guy who obviously loves the word atmosphere you don't seem to know how it works.
Thanos OK. It's also decided by character generation but still... |
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Jan 8 2005, 06:26 AM
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#42
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 313 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UCAS Member No.: 1,015 |
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Jan 8 2005, 07:03 AM
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#43
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
wait, what? whoah. lemme start over. my basic assumption is that the have-nots of any age are going to be pretty much equally miserable; below a certain level of suck, it just doesn't matter whether you're in the stone age or the fusion age--life's hard, and you're generally too busy dealing with it to get any miserabler. so, since you can't judge dystopianism on the have-nots, you have to judge it on the haves--more specifically, how much higher the quality of life is for the haves, than it is for the the have-nots. at this point in history, the worldwide gap between have and have-not is really, really high. ergo, according to a certain definition of "dystopian" that quite possibly only exists inside my own head, we live in a dystopian world. this sounds vaguely crazy, i guess, but it seems to make sense to some people--people like sterling, stephenson, and (in his latest book) gibson. (of course, stephenson made the point that any age can be considered dystopian, in the Baroque Cycle, so... whatever.) |
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Jan 8 2005, 07:24 AM
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#44
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
SR is defintely a dystopian setting. Large swathes of the population are disenfranchised and unhappy. Pollution is killing a great deal of the world. Many of the streets are unsafe, and corproate Darwinism is the rule of the day. Ick.
Anyway, SR D20 is a ridiculous concept. D20 works best for people who have a great idea of a setting, but don't have the ability to write a whole new rule system around it. They can just use this existing, open liscense, easily adaptable system for whatever story they want to tell. SR meanwhile, already has a fully functioning system, which the majority of players like, and which is part of the character of the game (I play a lot of D&D and L5R, and enjoy it, but sometimes, it just feels _good_ to roll that handful of d6s). Nothing is going to be gained by converting it, and the staggering (not to mention pointless) headache of converting everything will probably kill whoever tries it (just thinking about the magic system makes me want to pop a capilary). |
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Jan 8 2005, 07:55 AM
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#45
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
HAHAHAHahahahahahahahah (breath) aHAHAHAHAHAhahahahaha!
Shake, seriously, whatever youre smoking, cut back man. |
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Jan 8 2005, 09:33 AM
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#46
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Deus Absconditus Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,742 Joined: 1-September 03 From: Downtown Seattle, UCAS Member No.: 5,566 |
From Crimsondude 2.0:
That is my new sig file. That's about the best quote for anything on the internet I've ever read. Rock. |
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Jan 8 2005, 10:06 AM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 777 Joined: 18-February 03 Member No.: 4,110 |
lol <3 |
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Jan 8 2005, 02:57 PM
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#48
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 3-November 04 From: in the trenches Member No.: 6,805 |
If provocation is Shake's game...
he admirably succeeded. One has to give him that. At least, the rants are thought-provoking. Assuming books are really on their way out (at least in 2050 they are rare amongst runners but they are still there!), one could just set up a think tank and consider the idea of publishing SR on CDRom. Basically just a marketing ploy, natch, but perhaps there is the odd potential customer segment getting hysterical about the prospect of having to carry around books. Not me, I like looking at that meter or so of SR books on my shelf ;) Besides everything else - and I don't want to make this thread much longer than it already is - I side with those stating SR is not dystopian. Since it's basically science fiction it merely takes our world and views it through an extremist lense. What makes it so very special IMHO is the inclusion of magic, so stating there just might be something beyond our Newtonian world view. No esoteric mumbojumbo, just... neat. When SR came out it had that chaotic devil-may-care attitude. Logical. We had one of the worst 'peaceful' decades behind us. And everything in SR was being described from the gutterpunk perspective of the runners or for their benefit. SR has long lost this. I like to think Dunkelzahn's Will as the turning-point where the developpers sort-of said: Look, this world which the majority of denizens think "just OK" or "can't help it" may take a turn to the good or to the bad. You guys'n'gals have got the guns and the guts (and sometimes the brains), so why don't you stop having fun and start making a difference? But then again I just might be naive do-gooder... ;) |
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Jan 8 2005, 03:23 PM
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#49
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
I'll take books over a PDF any day. Books don't have a battery life, nor are they ridiculously fuzzy on screen.
Sure, they break apart. Sure, you need some form of light when it's dark out. Who cares? I'll be using them for years, and years, and years, and years... |
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Jan 8 2005, 04:44 PM
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#50
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I was midly interested until I got to the "4th Edition" and "D20" parts. Then I skipped the rest just so I could post that.
Edit: Now that I think of it, didn't MS pull something like this a while back? |
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Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 25th December 2024 - 03:52 PM |
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