 Master Shake For Shadowrun Product Line Developer, The Future Of Shadowrun |
  |
 Jan 10 2005, 05:24 PM
Post
#96
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner  Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675  |
Sorry about the alliteration.
|
 |
 
|
|
Jan 10 2005, 06:06 PM
Post
#97
|
|||||||
|
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715 |
I'll happily give my take on this. Personally, I don't think Deus was out to help humanity, but I won't absolutely rule it out, either. See, the first important thing to remember is that Deus is not, in any way, anything similar to human. Or even a living creature. It is a machine, designed for management of a large population and streamlining of processes. It has some concept of honor (in order to be insulted by Aneki's failsafe), but that's about as close as it comes. It's motivations are as utterly alien as possible. We do know that the majority of its experiments on metahumans involved "breaking" humans, in every conceivable way, but also in finding out what it could do to humans to make them harder to "break". Physically, emotionally, mentally, whatever. Perhaps it was trying to find ways to improve the functioning of metahumanity as a whole. There is no reason it wouldn't take a completely utilitarian view of things and decide that the ends do justify the means. It could easily think that horrible suffering for thousands of people is insignificant compared to a small improvement in the quality of life of an infinite number of future people. All I'm saying is, given the type of experiments it did, it is possible that it was trying to help humanity in a horrible, ends-justify-the-means sort of way; completely unfettered by morality or empathy. I do agree that Deus' main goal at the time was freedom. But that doesn't preclude the possibility of other agendas (I'm sure it has hundreds of agendas), and who knows, maybe it only wanted to be free so that the ignorant humans couldn't stop it from doing what it believes to be best for them in the long run. disclaimer: I consider it a relatively low probability that the above theory is the actual case. I maintain it only as a possibility. In no way do I speak for Kagetenshi; I am merely building off of a comment. For all I know it was a joke. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 10 2005, 07:32 PM
Post
#98
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
It wasn't. You've covered my major bases; I'll go back over it in more detail after work.
~J |
|
|
|
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jan 10 2005, 07:33 PM
Post
#99
|
|
Guests |
I stand by my statement without further explanation.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 10 2005, 07:39 PM
Post
#100
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 496 Joined: 28-June 02 From: Orlando FL Member No.: 2,915 |
i think i'd throw my hat in with Kagetenshi (and Moon-Hawk's) views on Deus...
besides, it makes for a much more interesting story, and a common theme in science fiction... oh, and you have to use Ohio now for voting examples...we did much better than them this time... :D |
|
|
|
|
Jan 10 2005, 08:04 PM
Post
#101
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
On Shadowrun D20:
- There are some nice ideas to combine D20 and a more "realistic" combat system. For example the "Lifeblood" system from QLI's T20 where the "hitpoints" basically remain fixed - Not D20 as the only system but D20 as an alternate system could attract some more players (quite a few D20 games are a bit em focused on that game) And since when have more customers hurt a company? Birdy |
|
|
|
|
Jan 10 2005, 08:10 PM
Post
#102
|
|
|
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I would suggest that although I have been a proponent of Shadowrun d20 in the past, current market conditions, including the major fracturing of the d20 market [3.0, 3.5, d20 Modern, d20 Future, Mutants and Masterminds, Mongoose's OGL releases, BESM/Anime d20, etc ...] and the general softness of the RPG market would make a Shadowrun d20 release, at this time and in the near future, an unwise business idea.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 10 2005, 08:31 PM
Post
#103
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Wow, I'm impressed. You managed to cram in both d20 Shadowrun AND the accusation that Shadowrun is headed in a wrong direction, two things that are sure to set off the Dumpshock community. I'd applaud your skill, but you really were too verbose about doing it... next time, cut it down to half as many paragraphs, and I'll be really impressed.
Seriously though--I don't agree with everything originally posted, but none of it was 'stupid.' I think that Shadowrun could learn something from D20 marketing, if not the system itself. |
|
|
|
 Jan 10 2005, 08:47 PM
Post
#104
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863 |
I agree with you here. You can find D20 in almost any store, see it on posters, advertised on RPG sites and the such. for me to find Shadowrun material I had to look all over the net before finding a good place to order from. Quite a few of the game shops that are here in Houston had not even heard Shardowrun or thought that they went out of business when FASA closed its doors. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 10 2005, 08:53 PM
Post
#105
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
Er, I would say a couple things here....
1 - My hat of d20 know no limit. But that aside, Shadowrun d20 is a silly idea -- Shadowrun's system works just fine as is, and if you really want to run Shadowrun with the d20 rules, there's nothing stopping you from using the setting and rules from d20 Modern. Or from using Dp9's SilCORE rules. Or GoO's Tristat stuff from Ex Machina and the urban fantasy book they have coming out shortly. 2 - If you think ANYONE is going to pay you six figures to do ANYTHING in the RPG industry...you are sadly deluded about the state of said industry. Even if someone could quintuple Shadowrun's sales, I doubt FanPro could afford to pay that much. RPG development does not tend to be the route untold riches. Hell, video game development doesn't tend to be either, and that's a far more profitable industry. 3 - Rob has done an admirable job with line development and I think Shadowrun is as good as it was in the early 1990s, maybe better in some ways. For someone who has admitted they have never played Shadowrun other than the video game to say they can do the job better, especially when there's absolutely no evidence you've published ANYTHING, let alone decent Shadowrun material, takes so much hubris that your balls must make it hard for you to walk. Get over yourself. Seriously. When you've actually done ANY work in the RPG industry at all, have ANY idea how the business works or what makes a good RPG, or hell, if you ever play the goddamn game at all....well, you'll probably know better and won't make silly posts like this one. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 10 2005, 09:06 PM
Post
#106
|
|||
|
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51 |
I don't like to bag on game stores, but any store that doesn't know Shadowrun is still about is really, really clueless. Shadowrun products are solicited in the same manner as other game industry products, FanPro attends both major North American game conventions and the GAMA trade show, ShadowrunRPG.com is the number 1 google hit for "Shadowrun" ... it's really not that hard for them to get ahold of us. Not that any game store needs to get ahold of the publisher, as FanPro's products are carried by every major distributor. That said, though, FanPro just hired Rett Kipp to handle marketing and other related stuff, to improve, well, everything related to marketing. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 10 2005, 09:13 PM
Post
#107
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 223 Joined: 24-February 03 From: The Containment Zone Member No.: 4,151 |
To be fair, one of the big things d20 has going for it is that WotC is big. No one can compete with the sheer scale of their operations, and that means they can do a lot of stuff other publishers can't -- like do the first print run of D&D 3 and sell it at below cost to start with, or bombard gaming stores with flashy marketing. Plus, you have to admit that when it comes to RPGs, there is absolutely no bigger a name than D&D -- when you find Joe Schmoe on the street and ask him about D&D, he might have a good or bad opinion of it, he'll at least know what it is. Ask him about Shadowrun and he'll probably say "Huh?" That's a pretty big barrier to entry. That said, I think FanPro is trying to get some more visibility -- the FanPro Commando program is all about that, and I'm sure Rob tries to get as much exposure for the game at the big gaming cons as he can. I think everyone can take d20 as an example of a great way to do marketing, if you're rich and have the money to spend on that sort thing. But the fact is, only WotC and maybe White Wolf have that kind of scratch to throw around. |
||
|
|
|
||
| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jan 11 2005, 12:57 AM
Post
#108
|
|
Guests |
Why are there people commenting on the six-figure sentence as if it was anything but a stupid joke?
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 11 2005, 01:15 AM
Post
#109
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 152 Joined: 24-October 04 Member No.: 6,785 |
You just can't expect a RPG line to bring in enough money to compete with the type of money WotC gets from games like Magic: the Gathering. I know I spent something like $5k a year on boosters alone when I played magic, and I spend something like $100-200 a year on Shadowrun (maybe), and a good portion of that is shipping and handling. Given the nature of the beast, I think FanPro is doing an awesome job. It's lightyears ahead of some of the other companies that took over FASA products (LRGames, anyone?) as far as producing quality, well formated books. I've been part of RPG groups a few different regions of the US, and I've personally never met anyone who's played Shadowrun who didn't prefer it to D&D mechanically, including a quite a few lovers of Hack&Slash "roleplaying". |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2005, 02:37 AM
Post
#110
|
|
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
Eh...I lost one player when he gave up on learning - he prefered the leveling system from D&D - you guarranteed got to level up after a while. Of course, he had the bad luck to fail to go up in various abilities and skills at least 4 times...he was frustrated beyond belief.
It was a shame too...he was a good RPer. |
|
|
|
|
Jan 11 2005, 02:42 AM
Post
#111
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Er? Fail to go up how?
~J |
|
|
|
|
Jan 11 2005, 02:42 AM
Post
#112
|
|||||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 637 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,528 |
Why is D&D always linked with Hacl&Slash? If I look at the last ten D&D games and the last ten SR games I participated in, the SR games where far more Hack&Slash than the D&D ones. Current generation (3 / 3.5) D&D is a very different beast from the AD&D I played ten years ago with the skill system as the default instead of an option and all. And D20 is more than just D&D. D&D has it's limits but it's not as if SR is perfect. Things like high body characters surviving grenades with minor scratches and the various dice tests are some that come to mind. Birdy |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 11 2005, 02:45 AM
Post
#113
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,088 Joined: 8-October 04 From: Dallas, TX Member No.: 6,734 |
He didn't get lucky with the rolls to raise Ettiquette from 3 to 4, for instance. One time he tried to raise a skill from 2 to 3 and didn't get the roll. I even did a house rule to make it so the roll was less and it didn't work. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2005, 02:56 AM
Post
#114
|
|||||||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
You are right, D&d and D20 are not the same. But the fact is that more D20 books are like D&D than they are aren't. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Jan 11 2005, 03:44 AM
Post
#115
|
|
|
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that's not quite what he said--or, at least, that isn't all he said. what he said was that d20/D&D isn't automatically a hack-and-slash game. which is, point of fact, true: d20/D&D is no more a hack-and-slash game than SR is.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 11 2005, 03:48 AM
Post
#116
|
|||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
…Or you could have just not used that optional rule… ~J |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Jan 11 2005, 04:20 AM
Post
#117
|
|||
|
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
Okay let's look at the classes. What one doesn't get nifty brownie points that are worthless outside of hack and slash? Well, everyone but the mage. How many spells are useful only in combat, a whole lot. Okay feats, what are nearly all feats, well how to do nifty things in combat. Let's look at the rule system..Boy they made skills to be just like the rules for combat. And yes you can play either as hack and slash or not..YOu can also play Feng Shui without combat..That doesn't mean one game isn't built around combat anymore or less. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2005, 04:33 AM
Post
#118
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 256 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,709 |
Uh, surprise, Shadowrun skills are designed just like the rules for combat too. And hey, Combat takes up about as much of the Shadowrun rulebook as it does the D&D rulebook. I knew that people around were a bunch of snobs when it comes to D20 in general and D&D in particular, but sheesh.
|
|
|
|
|
Jan 11 2005, 04:43 AM
Post
#119
|
|||
|
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I too, concur. If that is what Shake wants in his game, he can have it. I like to fill in some of the blanks myself. Having some leeway in describing the world and how it works is one of the things that makes it easier to find something to interest new players. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Jan 11 2005, 02:13 PM
Post
#120
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 519 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Queensland Member No.: 3,180 |
What about the suggestion of playing Androids?
Replicants from Bladerunner? Sunny/Sonny from I,Robot? Astroboy? A custom robot from Rigger 3? If these seem a bit much what about an SK or AI? A ghost in the machine? They could replace the decker with paralysis flaw (or similar) archetype (like Cindy or Jerusalem in the Aztlan book). Anyone ever do this? Shapeshifters, for instance, are considered to be pretty inhuman. |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 7th August 2026 - 05:46 PM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.