Shadowrun Online - The MMO, What are your thoughts? Options

[GreyPawn]

An offering to the Shadowrun community as a whole.

www.Shadowrun-Online.com

I welcome your thoughts, your input, your criticisms and queries. Post your thoughts liberally, for the site is meant to be an incubator of a collective vision. Be gentle though, for we are still in a conceptual stage.

[Kagetenshi]

Good luck braving the Redmond Barrens. I think that sticking point will end up killing the project.

~J

[GreyPawn]

The Redmond Barrens will most probably be a free-for-all non-consentual PvP environment consistant with the locale.

Unless by The Redmond Barrens you meant Microsoft, current owners of all FASA computer games intellectual properties. If you did, know that the purpose of the site is two-fold, to create a formidable game concept proposal to pitch Microsoft and to demonstrate a viable pre-existing base for the game.

--GreyPawn
--Shadowrun-Online.com

[Maxxi]

I think a safer bet would be too do what White-Wolf did for their online RPG chat. Just use a program like digichat, and have permenant chatrooms set up, each which represents a different area or street. Designate some people as moderators, and come up with a program that is also linked too the site that allows people to view their character sheets and others.

It'd be a good interim thing, and it would show you the amount of interest people had in such a thing.

[noneuklid]

I can't code well, draw well, or webmaster (at all), and my pockets are a little shallow. But if there is any way I can help a Shadowrun Online game get launched, I would love to see it as an MMO. I think that adopting conceptual elements from games like PlanetSide would be appropriate; having an integrated RP and FPS system would make SRO absolutely kick-ass.

[Mr. Man]

Of all the computer games that could be made with Shadowrun I like the idea of a MMO the least (which is to say: not at all). If it were a choice between Microsoft continuing to let their Shadowrun rights grow mold forever and making an MMO I would choose the former with no hesitation.

Huge groups of runners wandering around? Camping dragon lairs for the respawn? Every idiot with $10 a month let in the door and catered to?

No. Hell no.

[noneuklid]

There have been a lot of changes in MMOs recently, first and foremost the common status of instanced missions- which are perfect for SR. Check out CoH for the 'prime' example on that one. No camping.

Adding FPS elements would make stealth a more important concern, and so huge groups of runners would simply not work. Certainly players would probably form tribes or guilds, but encouraging backstabbing by subtle game mechanics would eliminate this.

Fleece the unwary and encourage the skilled.

[Trax]

I don't know about an MMO, but I think it would be great to have it as an FPS, kinda like Deus Ex, with the open story and plugin ability of Morrowind so that you can do the main story if you want, or ignore it and do whatever you want.

[GreyPawn]

Maxxi- Chatroom placeholders is a definite possibility as the project grows in strength, number and content.

noneuklid- Everyone has a talent. Even if yours happens to be writing or critical input. I welcome all SR lovers with any talent to participate in the SRO project in any way they can. Programmers, writers, critics, artists, designers, community cheerleaders, seasoned gamemasters and anyone else with two cents to add is welcome to contribute with the "Submit an Article" link on the site or the forums. Any help is appreciated, and brings the conceptualization one step closer to being successful.

[FrostyNSO]

I almost cry at the thought of thousands of "shadowrunners" running around the streets doing "shadowruns".

It's almost as bad as when I watch my friend play everquest 2 and he fishes and cooks for 4 hours.
Could you see a shadowrunner sitting in the middle of the barrens with a hunting rifle, sniping devil rats for 4 hours to make 'health' for his friends?

FPS Deus Ex style all the way.

[Arethusa]

Most MMORPGs aren't. They're rarely massive, are often not multiplayer, are online maybe half the time, involve no roleplaying, and hardly ever qualify as games. But that doesn't mean an online RPG has to follow the MMORPG formula of braindead repetition.

Is it possible for an SR online RPG to be openly developed by a community? Yes. Is is possible for it to break the conventions of a genre built on the stupidity of its fans? Yes. Is it likely that an independant group could manage this? I find it unlikely. A crack coding team can manage impressive things, but there are realistic obstacles when you venture into world creation, and those obstacles exist primarily in things that take large amounts of time, equipment, and money to successfully manage: soundwork, voice acting, art, etc. It's been done in open development to a limited degree, but even then, it was very difficult for teams to pull off. Given that Shadowrun is already a heavily niche game, I can only advise a strict sense of skepticism and realistic expectation.

[FrostyNSO]

I think a great Deus Ex, Splinter Cell, style, FPS update of the old Sega Shadowrun game would be awesome. But of course with a totally different storyline.

Or better, a dynamic storyline, not in the traditional sense, but a storyline where the decisions you make actually determine the plot you follow (and the path along), rather than which path you take within the one plot.

[The White Dwarf]

As a MMORPG vetern (and I mean it, Im ranked high and have spoken to people involved with the game staff, beta'd, etc), I have to say 2 things on this:

1) An SR MMO would be incredibly difficult to pull off successfully. Like really freaking hard. Like given a choice of going after Lofwyr, or designing this game, Id be forced to take pause and consider which is actually harder.

2) **IF** done right, an SR MMO would easily surpass all others. But for the love of all that is shadowy do it right. A poorly done one would do far more damage than could be imagined.

Properly implementing the various aspects of Shadowrun in a MMO environment poses many challenges, not all of which can be solved without coming up with new mechanics. Youd literally have to use every trick in the book and create a few new ones to do it. But omg, think of the possibilites .... Its like the run you know will likley kill you but is too cool to not take.

[GreyPawn]

This is in part one of the reasons it would have to fall into the MMO genre. Live ever-changing content and storyline cannot be accomplished in a single-player shot-in-the-dark Deus Ex style game. Nor would the amount of capital generated from a single player game be enough to support live and ongoing content.

Yes, it is going to be extremely hard. Anyone with a group of 10 coders and an engine can build a level treadmill. But the type of game the Shadowrun world demands as an MMO requires alot more forethought than your run of the mill Everquest clone. A single shot, single player FPS would be remarkably easier to do but offer an incredibly limited experience.

Not to bemoan or demean the purists, but any game is better than no game. And there *are* tons of tricks in my little black book of MMO design. You can read about some of them on the site right now. Like the Developer program, designed for the sole purpose of giving the players powers to add things to the world, like clothing, buildings, gear, etc.

Let me state with all due certainty that in SRO, there will not be any four hour marathon fishing for karma gain. Or camping of any sort. Dynamic spawn coupled with instanced run locations easily resolves that.

--GreyPawn
--Shadowrun-Online.com

[=Spectre=]

As big a fan of both Shadowrun and MMOG's as I am, I have to be exremely leery of any attempts to combine the two. Fundamentally, they are simply too different to actually work together and retain a mix of both. You could easily build a MMOG and slap the shadowrun liscence on it, but it won't bear any resemblance to the true game we've all played for years. Or, you could build a true Shadowrun game, but it's content and engine dynamics will almost restrict it to single or very small group play to stay coherent.

The problem stems from two primary sources. The first is of course, combat. As with any MMOG, turning combat into +'s and -'s is bad, but in Shadowrun, it's damn near fatal. Yet, the core rules require this in a number of instances simply because it makes each shot, punch, spellcasting or grenade toss a different experience from the last. Another problem with combat is scale. How exactly do you plan to stop Riggers, who have access to drones capable of dishing out far more damage than any other class save for maybe a combat mage. from teaming up and running air and drone strikes all over others. The instant you say, "Well we'll jsut tweak down their power level" you are removing yourself from Shadowrun. Riggers are rare in game because of financial constraints on the world. Not everyone has a million bucks or so to layout on one vehicle or drone setup. But in an MMOG, everyone wants to play everything, and this includes Riggers. Likewise, Deckers come with the very same problems as riggers, but are far more difficult to manage. Remember, Decker actions can take as little as a few seconds in game, but hours(in some cases, DAYS) to rule and roll out. How do you combine the lightning fast time of a Decker's ingame actions, with the turtle-with-only-three-legs slow decking rules.

The second primary problem is structure. The basic, fairly common play session in SR is "Johnson A pays team B to X(where X is equal to steal, plant, open, close, destroy, rebuild, enter, exit ) Y(where Y is equal to person, place, or thing)" In these situations, the GM is the general authoratitve world maker. He decides the subtle values and effects of character actions, such as whether or not their actions make the news, Lonestar, their reps or any other intangible factor. But in an MMOG, the world must automatically make these decisions. Abstract thoughts don't enter into it. If a runner does this, their rep increases. If a runner does that, Lonestar picks them up and strts looking for accomplices. Given the thousnads of factions spread out over the shadows of the world, how do you control what happens to a character with rep in seattle who deos a job in say denver.

I'm not really trying to knock the wind out of your sails for the project, but this has been sggested before, and in every case, these tasks prove near insurmountable. Shadowrun is a great game becuase it can be tailored to a variety of play styles, from the uber-violent to the uber-talktative, and everything n between. Trying to distill all of that into one solid video game concept just will not work.

[GreyPawn]

You are wise to be leery =Spectre=. MMOs and tabletops are vastly different creatures, with different ways of reaching a similar shared goal, that being fun. And you are right about how an MMO Shadowrun will be different from the SR pen and paper that you've played for years. It is the very nature of the digital media to present substance to what was only previously imagined. Is Dunkelzahn going to look in-game like he looked in your imagination from the vantage point of the tabletop? Perhaps, but probably not. But thats the tradeoff for substance.

You bring up the issue of balancing, with riggers and deckers and mages. Currently in Shadowrun, there exists a level of diminishing return, which has helped to balance things out a bit. But balance, even in Shadowrun pen and paper is a thing that every GM struggles with. I can firmly say that balancing will be on the top ten list of priorities for a Shadowrun MMO. And it won't be the "fix it as you go" approach many MMOs have adopted that force changes to the actual physics of the universe to nerf or twink specific disciplines/classes on the fly.

You've mentioned the problem of deckers and Matrix play. One of the earliest suggested remedies for this is a simple layering of the game world. Three different "spaces" one can exist in. The real, astral and the Matrix. Ever play Clive Barker's Undying? Astral Sight in that game is a perfect example. Faceted instanced game worlds layered over the existing static one. So the Decker will be able to travel along with a party in the Matrix interpretation of the real world, just as a projecting mage would be able to in Astral. In regards to speed, simplified success/failure calculations can determine the outcome of a decker or a rigger's actions without the need for hours of mathematical declarations. If a simplification of the rules functions in the same just and fair fashion as the complex variety, isn't the result the same?

Regarding structure and content, I'm a firm believer that content is king. Already the poll on the SRO site concurs with that fact. A random set of strings, intuitively populating NPC Johnsons' "to do lists" in exactly the same type of formula you have outlined would be the primary force of content. Secondary would be the more specific and lore-based missions, pre-written by both Live Content writers and players to provide a deeper understanding of the plot, lore and history of the world, very much in the way that World of Warcraft does missions. The third type of content is passive content. Seeing something in-game you'd recognize, like a Diner on a street corner or hearing an episode of WyrmTalk in-game for the first time. The fourth and final element of content is the best kind, that being Live Content. Runs and overarching plotlines administrated by game staff using GM tools to present the event to small or large groups of players, and adding a uniquely human interface to the storyline.

--GreyPawn
--Shadowrun-Online.com

[Kagetenshi]

Let's run through some problem scenarios, shall we?

Character A wants to improve his or her stats. How does he or she do that?

~J

[GrinderTheTroll]

One of my biggest complaints in transitioning any RPG to Console, PC or MMOG form is something gets lost in the translation. You are no long listening to the description and forming your own picture, which for me, has always been one of my favorite parts.

Also the mechanics of an MMOG would need to be so different that it would decimate many of the RPG facets that make SR a great RPG. Some sort of hit points would be introduced, reoccurring healing, new skill system, combat, weapon functions, magic, decking, rigging, you name it, would need to change to make for a lasting "real-time" experience.

I don't think an SR MMOG would bring a huge number of new SR players, look at EverQuest for example. There is a d20 Everquest RPG, and even though I enjoyed the MMOG, I had *zero* desire to play an RPG based on it. They might have similar themes (world, people, faces, names, etc.), but IMO the experiences are completely different.

Sorry for the bitter comments I just think not all things RPG need to make the translation to video-game, console or MMOG.

[GreyPawn]

[Kagetenshi]

So fixed karma aquisition based on run completion only?

I personally don't consider that an acceptable answer, and is certainly a departure from Shadowrun tabletop, but let's move on to the next question.

Bob wants to make a character. What is the Chargen? Priorities? Point-based? Something completely different and new for the MMORPG?

~J

[paul_HArkonen]

[Kagetenshi]

I think it's better than a lot of solutions, but when it comes down to it it is exactly a "camp the respawn" thing. You look for the job that you can clearly identify as offering more karma (and people will map them out).

~J

[paul_HArkonen]

That's why you have to try and prevent people from getting the same run over and over again, I realize it's a lot more work, but the only real solution is that once a run's been done... it's done, over with, completed, not available anymore. Period.

I understand it makes life a hell of a lot more dificult, but in my opinion that's the best system, again to encourage, actual role play, or at least something other than "I must become the best (player, runner, decker, etc) here."

And keeping Karma amounts for a run hidden would also help prevent that, although it wouldn't end it completely.

[edit] and any run that offers more Karma needs to be harder, delivering the bag should be worth maybe 1 Karma, maybe. Either way looking for a run that offers more Karma should mean looking for a harder to complete run. [/edit]

This post has been edited by paul_HArkonen: Jan 10 2005, 09:55 PM

[Nath]

Only on run completion ? That'd be without me. I don't to be going from and back an automatic Johnson #1 asking me to kill 10 squatters, pass a level and move on to Automatic Johnson #2... I want to be rewarded somehow if I want to play a gunrunner, paying other PCs to rob missile launcher in a military compound, protecting my goods and selling them on the black market to other PCs who want to use them on a run. Or as a fixer, accepting runs from Johnson only to subcontract them to other PCs. Or as a cop or as a corporate "counter-terrorist" expert stopping running PCs...

[paul_HArkonen]

but see those could each be considered runs.

Let's take your gun running example. You get X Karma for actually finding a group of PCs to work for you, another X Karma for getting the goods, another X Karma for selling them. But you don't get Karma from trying to find squatters and kill them.