Shadowrun Online - The MMO - Dumpshock Forums

Shadowrun Online - The MMO, What are your thoughts?

Arethusa View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 12:11 AM Post #101
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	You are right that it would require a large number of players (and an abandonment of traditional MMORPG server structure, which is your real problem), but I don't see reaching that sort of population critical mass impossible. But, again, I see it as a very large hurdle, and one that has not been considered anywhere near fully.

SpasticTeapot

Jan 13 2005, 12:26 AM

Post #102

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 560
Joined: 21-December 04
Member No.: 6,893

QUOTE (noneuklid)

I agree that it's unlikely, but like Kage, I really hope it succeeds. Since the whole premise of this project is to pitch a complete idea to Microsoft and then have them code and market the game, it seems like the two hardest elements are coming up with a design that enough of the community agrees on to have enough people supporting the project that MS is interested in the potential revenue.

Having a squad-based game probably wouldn't work for a persistant MMO, although it would function just fine if the characters were persistant but the 'world' was created on an on-demand basis.

I was thinking more along the lines of a turn-based system that could'nt be paused; sort of like playing Knights of the Old Republic without a spacebar. Characters would be able to make an action, show a movement animation, make another action, wait for animation to play out, etc. A round would take about three seconds (as said in the books), and initiative would affect play speed of the animations and start some people slightly before others. This sounds tricky (and it is!) but it's already been done, so it's possible to do it again, and it would be a good bit easier than doing things in real-time; plus, you could line up actions (like "throw grenade" and then "run away"), which would make playing an insanely fast character much easier. As an added bonus, people could start attacking at any time in the turn; it's up to the software to synch them in with the rest of combat.
One thing you might want to look at is asking Microsoft to do an open-contribution RPG. Essentially, anyone who wants to can contribute bits of code or 3d models, but Microsoft/Bungie/Whoever can assemble it and make sure it works. All coders and designers would also have the oppritunity to be beta testers, and those who are most appropriate could be GM's. Although having many people contribute code could be a problem, the fact that hundreds of people are all doing small, seperate parts might actually make it more difficult to hack.
An open-contribution system has one other advantage: characters can model their own vehicles. If Riggers were able to use the "make-your-own-vehicle" rules, they could submit a 3d model which a GM would have to look over in order to make sure it's appropriate. (For example, characters cannot make an invisible vehicle in a similar manner as to what has happened in Tribes III.) The same thing could be done with weapons, etc; and if a design works out particularly well, the character could start manufacturing it and make lots and lots of money.

Stumps

Jan 13 2005, 12:53 AM

Post #103

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 903
Joined: 11-December 02
From: The other end of your computer screen
Member No.: 3,724

QUOTE

but the average Joe that an MMO has to sell to

The thing is, that's a good thing, because the most important character type to have in surplus IS the runner. Having a game where everyone wants to be something like a Mr. Johnson would be a bad thing for SR.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 01:40 AM Post #104
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Only true out to a certain proportion, and I don't think it'd stop at that proportion. ~J

Stumps View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 02:10 AM Post #105
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724	Here's the thing. It's doesn't matter. They're all stupid gun-bunny freaks with cyber out the yin-yang. Woopy. That's how it is now, except for the long term players who are actual devote fans of SR. Well, that's what will happen in the MMORPG. And the other options will simply help the game in areas that they specialize in. But the game pretty much does have to center around Shodowruners....obviously. And no...it's not a problem. It really friggen isn't.

Stumps

Jan 13 2005, 02:22 AM

Post #106

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 903
Joined: 11-December 02
From: The other end of your computer screen
Member No.: 3,724

QUOTE ("paul_HArkonen")

I don't know, Stumps's idea has merits, but only if we were to slow down a combat turn, like if instead of 3 seconds it was 30 seconds. I could track the movement, a Sam could get his X number of actions off, and the mage could spend the full 30 taking his. I don't know how well it would work, but that's my suggestion.

Sure, whatever.
The time amount isn't really an issue actually because they won't be looking at it so anally like it is in the pnp. That is of course, unless they suck and have nothing better to do than run a stop watch to see if the moves line up with the pnp version of the movements and time. But those people need to be killed for waisting air and polluting the genepool, and their parents need to be killed so they can't just have another kid to replace that one.

QUOTE ("Kage")

Stumps: in addition to Paul's point, you need a huge userbase to make that kind of thing self-sustaining.

Already in place if you're running an MMORPG.
If you're talking about the stuff I was quoting from GuildWars, it's already been acomplished.
If you're talking about the combat control I was throwing around, that's not a real big feat my friend.
Go play SWG and play with the MACRO system. You can make that MACRO system pull of tasks in 1 second that require you to take about 30 seconds manually. So systems are not as clunky as you might think they are.
A database is really quite able to handle combos being thrown at it via user input.
Hell, an online Mysql database website can do that in a mere second...actually, they practically do when you play games online like Kings of Chaos and say that you want to take certain amounts of certain units with certain weapons and attack a certain player with a certain type of attack style.

And that thing is a rather mundane server.

QUOTE ("SpasticTeapot")

I was thinking more along the lines of a turn-based system that could'nt be paused

Might be interesting, but it does cause problems when a 5 meter area of the game is running on a different time than the rest of the virtualworld, and I think that's what GreyPawn is getting at. It may make things easier for YOU the player, but it complicates things for the whole system.

Stumps View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 02:27 AM Post #107
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724	Oh...and watching a tunr-based fight from a 3rd person stand point (I mean, a passing player who is NOT in the fight, I don't mean the perspective), is really gay looking. Just imagine walking by a fight in the allyway and you see 8 people frozen in time, and suddenly one of them moves and then freezes again. Looks gay.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 03:06 AM Post #108
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	So you're taking as an assumption an upper-four-digit playerbase right off the bat? And I'm so glad that turn-based fights look either happy or homosexual. I never knew a fight could have a sexual preference, or appear to. ~J

Adam View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 03:31 AM Post #109
Prime Runner Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51	Well, I know I'm gay about the turn of quality in this discourse.

Arethusa View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 04:39 AM Post #110
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775	Pack of fags, mate?

Cynic project View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 05:35 AM Post #111
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543	You can do turn based games that have limits to how long turns can be..IE if you are in a turn..You have X amount of time to do anything,and if you don't do anything..you don't do anything.

GreyPawn

Jan 13 2005, 06:05 AM

Post #112

Target

Group: Members
Posts: 49
Joined: 18-December 04
Member No.: 6,890

QUOTE

Having a game where everyone wants to be something like a Mr. Johnson would be a bad thing for SR.

Precisely. It is the divine right of balancing and quality assurance to insure that just that thing does not happen. The world of Shadowrun, both the tabletop and the MMO cannot be comprised solely of runners. Runners do not make the world go round, they just make things more interesting.

Ideally, the MMO will include the basic sweeping genres of character types, broken down into skills. Players will be able to be Runners, Johnsons, CEO's, Tailors, Gunsmiths, Architects, Fashion Designers, etc. All manner of myriad adventuring and crafting "schools" to choose from and hone, and each no greater and no lesser important than any other skill.

QUOTE

So you're taking as an assumption an upper-four-digit playerbase right off the bat?

The ideal playerbase for a Shadowrun MMORPG is 100,000+ subscribers. Only at that level would the MMO be able to be self-sustaining and capable of affording the publisher a respectable profit margin while supporting a live content staff big enough to populate the lore and execute in-game events in the main story arc.

--GreyPawn
--Shadowrun-Online.com

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 06:44 AM Post #113
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	You do realize that each of Everquest's servers only host 1,000 to 3,000 people at a time, right? Having 100,000+ people on a single server would be quite the feat. Furthermore, while the ideal final playerbase is 100,000+, you still need to start somewhere; if the game isn't fun in the beta while you're building that playerbase, well, it won't get built. ~J

Stumps

Jan 13 2005, 11:35 AM

Post #114

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 903
Joined: 11-December 02
From: The other end of your computer screen
Member No.: 3,724

QUOTE (Kage)

So you're taking as an assumption an upper-four-digit playerbase right off the bat?

Well, I think it would be a grave mistake to make MASSIVELY multiplayer online rpg with the idea for anything less than an audiance found on any popular Forum. (around 5,000 members on average).

If you make it for less people, you are actually asking the system to break when it hits that level.
And 5,000 players isn't all that hard to come by.
SWG averages about 600 people at any given time to be online at the same time on the same server, with a population of a few thousand residing on almost each server.

And considering that it's Shadowrun...yeah. I'd suggest that the audiance would be fairly large considering that there is about 5,000 members registered here and a percent of, at least, this population would play the game and then you have your other fan bases of SR outside of DSF, as well as the incomming audiance do to adverstising and marketing.

But really, I don't see how anything that I've suggested requires a number of players over 4 players.

QUOTE ("Kage")

And I'm so glad that turn-based fights look either happy or homosexual. I never knew a fight could have a sexual preference, or appear to.

Cute.
The term, as you obviously are aware of, refers to looking silly and awkward.
Sorry if I offended anyone.
[edit]From where I grew up, the term "gay" had a sister meaning to the word queer when defined as "Deviating from the expected or normal; strange". So saying something was gay, meant that it looked odd, and had nothing to do with sex or happiness. Sorry for the confusion.[/edit]

QUOTE ("Cynic project")

You can do turn based games that have limits to how long turns can be..IE if you are in a turn..You have X amount of time to do anything,and if you don't do anything..you don't do anything.

That's what SpasticTeapot was saying.
The same problem still exists. Whether or not, YOU are pausing anything, TIME is being paused. The only thing that this idea alters is that the time is only paused for a CERTAIN amount of time.

That still throws things off in that little area of the vitualverse from the rest of the virtualverse.

And seriously, turn-based just cannot look right as a passerby.
The only way anyone could possibly make that look decent is if the characters in combat never stopped animating their fighting, eventhough they weren't actually performing an action. While solving the time linkup issue with the virtualverse and the issue of asthetics, it presents the problem of awkward control and presentation to the players who are actually in the combat.

Real time combat is the only real way to go, but obviously, something like turn-based is needed for SR since it rests on the mixture of free, simple, and complex actions in sequential turns for it's combat system.
This is why I suggested the idea of combo set-up and assigned keys.

It allows the players to make choices similar to those found in SR turn-based combat inside of a realtime combat atmosphere at a pretty fast pace.

Cynic project View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 12:09 PM Post #115
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543	You can look at COH and see that is real time,and yet has actions that could be called,simple,free or complex. SOme actions take more time than others. And here is a news flash, watching other people fighting bad guys in COH isn't fun. It is as you put,rather gay. But from your posts, I do not think you will take a middle ground on this topic. I think you want your paradox, it gives you something to whine and be depressed about. But for the fun of it. No, you can't eat your cake and have it too.

Stumps View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 02:23 PM Post #116
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724	Actually, I'll embrase middle ground. I don't know what you are talking about. The idea I'm throwing out there is based on middle ground. It's not the best idea, and I realize that openly. It's a root idea to push the concept of actually meeting up on middle ground between turn-based and real time. The balance between the two would be the ideal spot for an SRMMORPG in my opinion.

bitrunner

Jan 13 2005, 03:18 PM

Post #117

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 496
Joined: 28-June 02
From: Orlando FL
Member No.: 2,915

QUOTE

Ideally, the MMO will include the basic sweeping genres of character types, broken down into skills. Players will be able to be Runners, Johnsons, CEO's, Tailors, Gunsmiths, Architects, Fashion Designers, etc. All manner of myriad adventuring and crafting "schools" to choose from and hone, and each no greater and no lesser important than any other skill.

ugh, crafting....i hate crafting...personally, i think this is the wrong way to go - Shadowrun is not about having a day job, it's about shadowrunning...sure, if you have a B/R skill you can have the character repair damage points to a gun, etc, but i don't think there should be the capability to actually build a gun, or set up an economy where a character just sits around and builds guns all day to sell to other characters...that's not Shadowrun...i could see having a mission at some point where the character/team has to collect various systems of a device and assemble it to perform a final mission, but that should be the extent of it...

FrostyNSO View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 05:49 PM Post #118
Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550	Something nobody has brought up yet. There needs to be some way to prevent the massive inflation of prices that occurs in these games. I don't want to pay :nuyen: 2,892,543 for an Ares Predator.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 06:59 PM Post #119
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Why does that inflation occur? And again, Stumps, while the game will optimally include thousands of people at any given time, it still has to be fun for the beta testers. ~J

GreyPawn View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 07:15 PM Post #120
Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890	Kagetenshi and FrostyNSO I wrote the following for the SRO site awhile back- MMO Virtual Economies That should give you some idea as to the various types of MMO economies and how they function. Inflation prevention in an MMO is simple. You just expand and increase the intensity of the output source while keeping the input the same. --GreyPawn --Shadowrun-Online.com

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 07:30 PM Post #121
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	It will, of course, be slightly tiered (more difficult jobs will pay more, while less experienced runners won't be able to take them on). Any ideas how you're going to keep runs from becoming a numbers game? ~J

Stumps

Jan 13 2005, 07:57 PM

Post #122

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 903
Joined: 11-December 02
From: The other end of your computer screen
Member No.: 3,724

QUOTE ("Kage")

more difficult jobs will pay more, while less experienced runners won't be able to take them on

I like the philosophy that Guild Wars kind of gets at.
You can take the big number jobs right off if you want to.
There is no restraint in the system to say "No, you can't try."

OTOH, being a newbie runner on day one, and trying to do a Aztec run solo will most likely result in you dying. (and of course, respawing)

whiiiiiich brings me to the next thing I've been thinking about.
With no PD's, as GreyPawn has said he will not, under any circumstance, pitch to Microsoft, being in the game, there should at least be a system that says that you get zipola Karma if you died during the mission.

That way, newbies can't take rediculous missions over their head just to get uber Karma for the attempt.

That's a quick brainfart, and may not bare any need, but it's what I was thinking.

I haven't read through the economy layout yet, though I do intend to at some point, I'll just note that the best MMORPG economy I've seen so far was in Star Wars Galaxies. We actually plotted out how we could set up a player made bank and broker system and pretty much start a stock market trade system in that game and then go buy out other Guilds slowly over time with the money.
We figured out that you need 3 Doctors healing people for about a week straight and then you have enough money from players to start everything up.
Really fricken cool system.

Wish I had the time to actually go do that.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 08:15 PM Post #123
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I misphrased, apparently. By "won't be able to take them on" I didn't mean "won't have them offered or be able to accept them", I mean "will fail at best, die at worst if they try". ~J

noneuklid View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 08:27 PM Post #124
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: 3-January 05 Member No.: 6,925	The massive costs occur in games like EVE online. You can probably get rid of it by charging players upkeep costs; SOTA (keep it scaled back- it doesn't make sense that all of the sudden a gun does less damage if you don't buy the latest propellant for your rounds- but if you've got a bladeboy with .2 Essence and straight delta, he's gonna need to keep his drivers up to date), lifestyle (you don't eat, you collapse from fatigue in the middle of a run), maintinence, etc. And I'm still pushing the idea of PD, as long as the account karma bit is kept in; if you don't pay your DocWagon contract after the free trial period goes up, you should get what you pay for. EDIT: One of the big concerns in modern MMOs is xp:time. So there's no real reason you only have to award karma on success; just make it that if you die badly enough, it takes DocWagon a long time to get to you and an even longer time to resseccitate. If you make the players watch this really long animation of themselves lying around and being rushed to a hospital and doctors coming and going for 10 minutes, they're going to be more careful about dying in the future. Even though they get partial karma, the amount of time it cost them for screwing up detracts from the amount of karma they COULD be earning. This post has been edited by noneuklid: Jan 13 2005, 08:32 PM

Stumps View Member Profile	Jan 13 2005, 09:05 PM Post #125
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724	SR characters are high level characters at character creation, by comparison to many other RPG's out there. There is no real crunching for hours to get enough exp to get something in SR. You have so many skills in the beginning that you will normally be good to go and satisfingly so, for a while. There is no need to remove that for some reason and make player crunch hours after hours to get exp to get skills up, when they could be replacing that time doing what SR was designed around. Playing ACTIVELY.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »