 Shadowrun Online - The MMO, What are your thoughts? |
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 Jan 13 2005, 09:13 PM
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#126
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724  |
You can't. Simply because you can't keep it from being that in real life. Any smart group out there knows that they aren't going to take a lesser paying job over a higher paying job with less supply cost for the job. The actual way to curve it, is much like reality. Players who are Mr. Johnsons will make competing offers to players, and the good and bad ones will gain reputations accordingly and word of mouth will spread in a certain area of the virtualverse about that Mr. Johnson. The other curve, is one potential from the Corporate side of the house. Corps can offer runs without a Mr. Johnson if they want to, and that can be done by the players who are playing as Corporate Employees and have gained a certain status of job in the Corp high enough to pull things off like that. Players can also place bounties on other players and/or NPC's that have rewards for the players who accompish the task. Treasure hunts can also be posted by players who need an item stolen from Aztec, for say, for their little project, but can't get it themselves. All of these variables make it increasingly harder, but not impossible, to calculate the numbers, and it get's even harder as these jobs compete for "employees". |
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Jan 13 2005, 09:21 PM
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#127
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 13-January 05 Member No.: 6,974 |
Here is an idea: Your monthly Subscription fee is your doc wagon contract... Play for free all you want, but if the char dies, that's it! Time to reroll!
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Jan 13 2005, 09:43 PM
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#128
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I like your idea! Never happen, but I like your idea :)
That's my other beef with MMO's. I understand why you have to pay every month, but it just seems lame to buy a game and then pay every month to play it. There should be a single-player mode of some sort. |
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Jan 13 2005, 09:45 PM
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#129
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
actually the problem with PC Johnsons just occured to me. Why? why is a johnson offering the job? Because he, or his employer wants it done. Most Johnsons, at least in my SR world, spend the vast majority of their time just sitting at work doing whatever it is they do. When the company runs into trouble, they go hire a runner. You'd have a hard time getting a PC to really accept that as their lot, at least I think you would. You would always have to have situations for the PCs to be earning money off of for them to be effective Johsons.
Unless you do all the Johnsons as freelancers, in which case you still need a bank of corporate, randomly created, runs for them to hire out. |
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Jan 13 2005, 10:33 PM
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#130
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Not that kind of numbers game. The kind of numbers game where whether you succeed or fail depends more on your character's stats than how you approach the problem. For instance, in Quake, it's primarily about the player's skill and aim and soforth. In Quest for Glory 1, there's a few small tactical decisions but mostly combat is about knowing that you can beat your opponent and then hammering combinations of attack buttons. How do you keep it from being "oh, I've got Stealth 8 and Pistols 6 with a silencer, I'll beat this mission without thinking"? ~J |
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Jan 13 2005, 10:48 PM
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#131
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 116 Joined: 3-January 05 Member No.: 6,925 |
I tend to agree that having the johnsons be automated or largely automated would be a better idea. While there could still be some PC Johnsons working for corps, it's hard to convince a player to play a character whose sole purpose is to sound mysterious and sit in a chair with goons nearby. Gets boring.
<push>Now, if the player of the Johnson was awarded account karma for doing so...</push> |
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Jan 14 2005, 12:03 AM
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#132
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
PC Johnsons are not difficult.
They won't get bored because they won't be just sitting around. Shadowrunners just sit around and wait for the job as far as their world really goes, but most groups chose to "fast forward" to the active parts. PC Johnsons won't be bored because they will be freelancing as well as working for corps. There are basically those two types of MJ's: Corp backed, and Freelanced. Freelancers will be actively sticking their nose around and haggling for jobs the best that they can or gathering info about things the best that they can so that they can turn around and hire Runners. Corp ones are pretty easy to understand. They get told to go get Runners to do something and they do. Basically, MJ's are middlemen. They always have been. In normal MMORPG's it goes, mission -> adventurer. In SR it goes, mission -> Mr. Johnson -> Runner So, an SRMMORPG should do the same. And the payment goes: mission -> Mr. Johnson -> Runner Where as delivery of completion basically goes: Runner -> Mr. Johnson -> mission Mr. Johnson's would be VERY needed because when you want to know something, there is no other player style out there who's going to know more about where things are and what's hot right now than them because they will be seeing tons of missions everyday pass by. The motivation to play such a role is much like the motivation to play Political classes in other MMORPG's, which players do. The thing is, the bulk of players won't play these kinds of roles, which is a great thing, because you want the bulk of your players to be Runners, not Mr. Johnsons. But players will want to because Mr. Johnson's will make more money than most Runners because of the percentage earning, and they also create jobs for at least 2 other players who will be paid by the MJ as bodygaurds, then he might want a PC driver. Who knows. The thing is, they are rather a ritzy character once they get going, and might be in the social upper circle in organizations set-up by players. And of course the MJ would get Karma from the mission being completed. It's a job well done if he chooses the right people and get the job done. Besides, he can even make an extra buck if he doesn't tell them what the total pay for the mission is and just tells them how much he's paying them. ;) Now, a smart group will have a MJ in it as part of their regular crew. ;) |
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Jan 14 2005, 12:09 AM
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#133
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
Simple. In SR it's done with Dice. In SRMMORPG it would be done with formulas in the programming. The chance of not succeeding is something that you can always calculate with skill based games, but your actual ability will so augmented with TN modifiers in realtime battles that it would boggle the mind to even try and run those formulas to figure out your exact chances of succeeding. You can, however, say, "sounds simple, should be no problem." because you've done things like it in the past as a player and see no reason for this to be different. |
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Jan 14 2005, 12:44 AM
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#134
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
EDIT: GreyPawn, tell me what you think of this method of keeping everything non-chaotic but allowing characters to mo
I would think that a "free" MMO like Eve Online (eve-online.com) would make some sense. You pay 5$ plus 15$ to cover your first month of service, and you're ready to go. Plus, this eliminates the need for a distributor; simply let people download it over Bittorrent and get a single rented server for use as a seed, and you're ready to go.
Simple. As I was saying earlier, a real-time game based around a 3-second combat turn would work just fine. Skill would make it easier to get good shots in (and give some small bonuses) but actually hitting the person in the first place would require the use of a first-person perspective with an aiming reticle. If you can't hit the person (or miss the all-important headshot) you're in a great deal of trouble. EDIT: I just wanted to clear up how the whole thing could work. The entire world operates on 1-second combat turns. If you're not in combat, you're still running through combat turns anyway. This makes it easy to synchronize the game, and puts a cap on the advantages of super-fast characters; you can't shoot faster than you can aim the shots. This is also an easy way to regulate the amount of time it takes to use skills, and would keep the "delay" factor of waiting for the turn to actually start in combat to a minimum, while giving players a short chance to look about before actual combat begins. Characters would be able to make melee attacks automatically, with no aiming required. This is a MMORPG, not Soul Calibur: Futuristic Online Edition. (Holds, surprise KO's, and judo-style throws may be options for martial artists, though.) Ranged attacks, however, would be made using an aiming reticle, perhaps with a 1st-person perspective. Skill would give the traditional damage enhancement, but the player must actually hit the opponent to do damage. Certian areas would have damage bonuses; a headshot might to 25% more damage than usual. Recoil would make the gun vibrate a LOT, and scopes....are pretty much self-explanatory. I personally think that guns should be available for well-connected fixers at all times. Of course, they would need to buy them in bulk, and they might have to go on a small adventure to arrange for the proper documentation. They may then sell the weapons to shadowrunners. Many weapons, however, would be obtained via the killing of opponents; you can take their weapons and armor, if used. Buying and selling these weapons could also be highly lucrative. One thing I was also thinking of is allowing people to create their own weapons, vehicles and color schemes. By running the end product's design (Gmax file, Gmax is 3d software freeware made by Discreet) by a GM, they could make vehicles that looked nothing short of bizzare. Remember, anyone with the right parts and a knowledge of car mechanics can take a land-rover engine and aftermarket chassis and end up with a psychadellic 1970's VW minibus. The same goes with weapons; using a nifty interface that lets you pick from a large number of barrels, chambers, firing mechanisims, stocks, and other things, characters can make custom weapons (providing they have appropriate B/R weapons skills). Characters can also start gun-repair and gun-cleaning services for those who lack the skills themselves. -SpasticTeapot. |
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Jan 14 2005, 01:48 AM
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#135
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
The problem is we're trying to avoid that. We want, sorry I say we I guess I should stick to I, I want it to be that if my personal character has a MW-4 system, and he's so fluid and fast that a normal human (me the player) could never even come close to tracing his movements, let alone mimicing them, can play him. I don't want a cap on max speed, other than what the game has already. I don't want to limit speed, I want to enhance a players ability to use that speed. |
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Jan 14 2005, 05:10 AM
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#136
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
I hate to beat a dead horse or ring a loud bell over and over, but paul...that idea that you want and desire, is exactly what I'm theoretically suggesting is possible with combo assigned keys.
I don't know if it would work exactly, but I think it would be faster because you can have entire phases summed up into one button, which allows you to be able to move much quicker. As to the aiming bit, I really think that first person is a bad idea. It may seem cool, but it's WAY to slow for any good to come of it for cyber junkies, and aiming with crazy speed mouse movements is not ideal because you're aim will suck even though your character stats say that you don't. The way to go is to simply have two modes, in my opinion. The way I was talking about before is just an optional mode available for the uber fast guys to take advantage of (anyone can use it, but it's made with them in mind...though it could be useful to riggers, and deckers too. Auto systems are handy for those guys). Anyways... The main system would be one where, if you hold a firearm capable of different firing modes, you will press the appropriate button(s) to switch firing modes and your targeting retical aims automatically in porportion to your stats mixed with chance (like the dice) at your opponent and you attack. The controls will basically be like those in shooters, but in a 3rd person percpective slightly from behind, yet rotatable, style of view, common to MMORPG's. The mages will be the only characters that will probably want macros, to fling spells out quickly, by default. Riggers, and Deckers won't really need them, but they can benefit from them. Cybers won't always need them right off the bat, but they will most likely end up needing them. Regular Combat can be done by simply cliking on the oponent you wish to attack and then clicking the attack you wish to use, or using the assinged key that you wish to use that has an attack, spell, program, combo, or action assigned to it. For the first phase of action in real time everyone just simply clicks. After that, the players can choose to click and press buttons for their actions faster than their characters can preform them and have their actions stack up onto eachother. They could also cancel all actions comming up and redo it, in case things didn't go as planned. SWG did something like this and it worked out pretty well in that area. I first saw this style of combat in SpellForce and I haven't seen much better systems, in my opnion, since. Combat went smooth, eventhough you were controlling both a roleplaying character fully as well as small armies similar to those found in warcraft. This concept of clicking the enemy and then clicking the attack, or pressing the attack is far faster than the typicaly reversed order. Especially when the system automatically lists what possible actions you have, or what more probable actions you have for the opponent that you have clicked on. Granted, that list, in SR, could take too long in some cases, while working well in others. It would work well for the Mages, while the cyber guys still might prefer to combo quick key it up to take more advantage of their speed. Mixing the two would create powerful options for Deckers and Riggers as the clicking options could be a whole new set of actions that are different from their quick key actions and therefore offering them two very fast menus of options to choose from. |
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Jan 15 2005, 12:56 AM
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#137
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
actually Stumps I was agreeing with you. My comment was towards SpasticTeapot who said "puts a cap on the advantages of super-fast characters; you can't shoot faster than you can aim the shots. " I wasn't referncing your stuff at all. So far what you've said makes sense, and I'm willing to say, "it isn't perfect, but it's better than what I've got to offer so I'm willing to support it."
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Jan 15 2005, 01:13 AM
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#138
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 560 Joined: 21-December 04 Member No.: 6,893 |
I guess I see your point. However, some range penalties and LOS-penalties would have to be enforced in order to keep things from becoming a simple matter of pulling out your MMG and mowing down anyone dumb enough to get in your way. LOS modifiers would have to be enforced; there's no advantage to occasionally ducking around the corner of a building to chuck a grenade if the player can pick you off without any effort. The same goes for sniping; there's just no point in actually running up and engaging someone in melee combat if all you have to do is click to make someone die. The first-person shooter thing might be a bit of a problem, but I've yet to see a better idea. The "hotkey" system is a good idea, though; players could set favorite combinations of actions to assorted keys and actually take advantage of MBW systems. |
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Jan 15 2005, 01:22 AM
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#139
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
We need to see varying degrees of cover as well.
By this I mean the fact that a trashcan is not going to stop assault rifle bullets outright. This is important, and would place more emphasis on tactics in the gunfights. |
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Jan 15 2005, 06:16 AM
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#140
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 903 Joined: 11-December 02 From: The other end of your computer screen Member No.: 3,724 |
As far as I was concerned, ALL SR LOS rules were to be adapted into the game. I never once ran a concideration about an SR game without them. That would be just plain suicide! |
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Jan 16 2005, 12:33 AM
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#141
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
or a masacer (sp) if the AI didn't use it
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Jan 16 2005, 02:26 AM
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#142
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 807 Joined: 9-October 04 Member No.: 6,741 |
I have an idea for how to deal with players that get out of hand.
Remember that the Corporate Court has a few special squads to keep corporations under control. Well, let's just say I stated up a squad that serves that function and sometimes also goes after individual threats that pop up. We're talking the best equipment and armor money can buy, and even a few items developped just for them that no one else has. They even have a few pieces of equipment the runners can never afford to buy. So if a group gets too roudy and causes too many problems, sick that group on them and program it so that group causes PD when they kill someone, even if you don't have PD otherwise. You can use that group to deal with hackers and other problems. If you wish, I can post the stats and equipment of these people. |
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Jan 16 2005, 08:21 AM
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#143
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Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
There's only one MMOG that tried to make a single-player offline version, and that was Uru:Ages Beyond Myst. Which was cancelled. The publishers of that game actually used the single-player mode as an excuse not to go ahead with the online game - "We made some money on the single player mode already, and the online version will take upwards of two years to see a return on the investment, so we are cutting the project short." As for the monthly cost, ideally, you would be paying for an evolving, changing world. If it helps, think of it this way. You aren't paying 12-15 bucks a month to play the same game - you are paying 36-45 bucks every three months for sequels. Which is actually how Guild Wars is being marketed. You pay to buy the initial game, and the service is free. However, if you want updated content, you have to buy the new expansion every few months. Ultimately, it'll be not much different than the standard MMOG cost structure, cos you're still paying money over time. -karma |
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Jan 16 2005, 01:58 PM
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#144
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Target Group: Members Posts: 82 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,544 |
I'm not interested in a SR MMORPG. It will leave out the most important player in the game, the GM. Without him, you might was well be playing Dawn of Atlantis.
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Jan 16 2005, 10:35 PM
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#145
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
I'm afraid not. The type of game SRO will be will command a constant inflow of sustaining capital. Probably your typical $39.99 for the box and software with a $12.95 -$14.95 a month fee. What this pays for is bandwidth, overhead, publisher fees and more importantly, the heavy Live Content team which would be employed.
Not at all. The "GM" will be in the form of the Live Content team, a corps of former Shadowrunners and Shadowrun GMs with exceptional talents and experience in the MMO genre. These individuals will be employed and given God powers to fashion "quests" with a human touch, to humanize the NPC Johnson randomization process and to incite events and execute the prime story arc.
Cardinal rule of MMO design- Thou shalt not allow one-hit kills in PvP. |
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Jan 16 2005, 10:58 PM
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#146
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Which is a bad rule. Of course, there's nothing better…
Incidentally, where are you going to get that many exceptionally-talented Shadowrun players with experience in the MMO business? ~J |
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Jan 16 2005, 11:09 PM
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#147
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Maybe it's just me, but I don't see any way that Microsoft is going to let you make money off this. I can see them possibly turning a blind eye if it were free, but once any kind of financial transaction is involved, I envision legal action will ensue.
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Jan 16 2005, 11:13 PM
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#148
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
His idea (as I see it) is that he'll put together a solid proposal and submit it to Microsoft in hopes that they'll pick it up.
Which will probably kill getting any decent number of Shadowrun players in on dev/content development, but so it goes. ~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 12:53 AM
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#149
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I think Greypawn has more of an image of what he wants this thing to look like than he admits. He asks for input and opinion from the GM's and Players of SR and then discounts it, and proceeds to explain 'how it will be' in this game.
I for one hope Microsoft doesn't swing at this particular pitch. |
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Jan 17 2005, 04:02 AM
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#150
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm just thinking that if they turned down a very solid offer from Bioware, a MMO isn't going to sway them much. |
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