 Shadowrun Online - The MMO, What are your thoughts? |
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 Jan 17 2005, 05:05 AM
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#151
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Manus Celer Dei  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802  |
Oh, I agree. There's a reason I wished him luck braving the Redmond Barrens back at the start of the thread.
~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 06:52 AM
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#152
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Wherever I can.
We are already in communication with Microsoft. The game concept proposal will be for Microsoft to publish it, not develop it. Publishers, like EA, Sony, etc, fund development studios like Troika, Origin, Verent, etc. to build games for them. For fronting the capital needed, they take the lion's share of the profit and expenses.
Shadowrun is more popular than you might know. And there are a great number of very hardcore players and GMs who are not as pen&paper purist as some of the board-dwellers here might be.
The basic game mechanics of a third-generation MMO can't be fiddled with much if survivability is considered. I welcome and crave input and constructive criticisms, but I also have a very good eye for what will work and what won't in an MMO. I do have a firm vision for the game, but its not a mutually exclusive one. Alot of the more destructive criticisms I've been seeing on this thread have already been covered in some way or another on the site, as well. --GreyPawn --Shadowrun-Online.com |
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Jan 17 2005, 08:13 AM
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#153
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Listen.
You can make an MMO that is based on Shadowrun, is original, and brings new and different aspects of gameplay to the table. or... You can make an MMO that is just like the hoards of MMO's out there already that just happens to be based upon the Shadowrun world. my opinon... You have discounted many constructive criticisms and ideas that other dumpshockers have placed on the table, in favor of your vision of a Shadowrun MMO which in my opinion (and possibly only my opinion, but whatever) smacks of convention and will no doubt be swallowed up as "just another MMORPG". |
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Jan 17 2005, 08:28 AM
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#154
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That also answers the question "where am I going to get billions of dollars, my own private planet, and a unicorn?" It isn't an acceptable business plan. ~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 09:26 AM
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#155
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
I've been lurking on this thread since the beginning, not sure if I wanted to pipe up here or not. Having experience with both PnP Shadowrun and several of the more successful MMO's (EQ, DAoC, & SWG... eh), I find the idea of a Shadowrun MMO an exciting one.
Would it be different? Yes, of course. The Genesis and SNES carts diverged greatly from how the PnP versions worked, but I can remember several threads regarding these antiquated carts and the enthusiasm on how they made everyone feel was pretty positive in general... and those games are really crap compared to how cool the PnP version is. That said, I'd only pay and play this game if the feeling was there. As much as I can understand why PD wouldn't work in a MMO, I do have to say that it would be sorely missed IMO for the online version. It just wouldn't feel gritty without the threat of permadeath for some reason. DocWagon respawns, sure... I can buy that. Comes with the MMO territory. I'm with Kage on the Matrix issue though. Deckers shouldn't be overlayed onto the real world. That just sounds all kinds of gay to me. It makes sense for astral projection, as the mage would really be there.... but not for the Matrix. Riggers being badasses? I don't get this argument really. If the runs incorporated the same types of situations found in the PnP version, why would they be so kick ass? Indoors riggers do not rule. Charming Johnsons, riggers do not rule. If given the correct penalties, the rigger pet idea wouldn't be the broken "class". I'm sure I'll catch up on some of the other comments, but let me ask Grey Pawn a question or two... 1) How are you planning on handling the crowds of people that would be populating the city? In almost every piece of Shadowrun art that I have, city streets have throngs of people in them. In most MMO's that I've played, there are only a bare number of NPCs in towns, often being only pivotal individuals (trainers, shop keepers, guards, etc). 2) How interactive would the environment be? Could someone with a rocket launcher blow a hole in a building and would it stay that way? Could someone pick up a trash can and throw it to make a noise distraction? I could come up with other examples, but I think you can tell where I'm going with this. 3) Will there be a sense of time in the game? Will Seattle always be shrouded in night/day... what? Will runners need to sleep and eat in the game? Will they have to pay their bills, such as rent and contact upkeep? 4) Will Kage and Frosty be evil NPCs in the game? |
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Jan 17 2005, 09:30 AM
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#156
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Uh oh. There are those homosexuals again. Git 'em, pa!
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Jan 17 2005, 10:58 AM
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#157
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The word does have another, equally valid meaning.
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Jan 17 2005, 11:10 AM
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#158
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But it's nonsensical to say that it sounds all kinds of happy.
~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 11:22 AM
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#159
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It also means strange or odd, and has so for much longer than it has been in popular use in reference to homosexuals.
Just as yellow can mean the color, but also be attributed to a coward. Words can and do often have multiple meanings in English, especially when taking colloquialisms and slang into account. There's a point where being PC can be taken too far. |
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Jan 17 2005, 11:32 AM
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#160
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I'm seeing no evidence of that in any etymology I've found. Everything I'm finding is agreeing that the term was used to describe homosexuals starting in the nineteenth century and only starting to mean strange or odd after that. If you've got proof, now would be the time to show it.
Come to that, I'm also not finding anything to suggest that gay meant strange or odd before it was connected to queer by both being labels for homosexuals. ~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 11:49 AM
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#161
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Whatever. I didn't use the word in the first place. I am just saying that it can and does have more meanings, slang or not, than merely homosexual or happy, as do a lot of English words.
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Jan 17 2005, 12:20 PM
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#162
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Somebody made an interesting point earlier about linking DocWagon and subscription fees.
On reflection, this kind of has some real potential. You could make the SRMMO free to play BUT perma-death (I'd make sure to clearly define the point of unconsciousness between life and death, to give a small chance of being saved). That way people can buy the game, play the game, maybe even do quite well; but their characters are never going to be long-term, since the first time it all hits the fan, so do they. Subscribers, on the other hand, get DocWagon services - ie, revival at the hospital, the equivalent of the respawn of other games (very similar in nature to the CoH version). Death penalties are up for grabs, really, but some form of experience/karma debt, maybe coupled with a durational weakened state, would seem to be the best. I do NOT favour consequence-free deaths, personally. And yes, I do think DocWagon should always work. No, it's not pure PnP. Yes, it's economic sense. However much people may wish differently, some things are mandated by the decision to make an MMO in the first place, assuming you want to make a success of it. Additionally, by the way, I would make certain aspects of gameplay only available to subscribers - player-owned housing springs to mind as a good example. Why have player-owned housing? Well, bragging rights aside it would be a safe location to rest and recuperate, to store equipment, etc. You could own more than one house (housing would probably be best handled as instanced locations) so, for example, a decker might have his main pad and a "throwaway" cheap location for decking from, so that if he blows a trace and report he can bail without losing all his snackies to the imminent strike team. |
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Jan 17 2005, 04:28 PM
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#163
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Likewise "gyp" has another slang meaning other than "gypsy". However, like the usage of gay under discussion, it is derived directly from that meaning. Thus, while it may have another meaning, it is in no way less offensive or more acceptable. ~J |
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Jan 17 2005, 05:18 PM
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#164
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 881 Joined: 1-May 04 Member No.: 6,295 |
I'm all for gay rights, and not being prejudiced and all of those other things, but we know what he means and here isnot the place to berate him for his lack of proper thesaurus use. you can feel free to berate him to your hearts content elsewhere, but let's not get this thread closed for being off topic shall we?
Now on to something slightly more on topic. I have to say that the pay for not die mechanic seems good in theory, but I just don't know about it. I'd say instead of having it be a pay your real cash, get a docwagon contract do it like the game, pay your money, get a docwagon contract, and unlike in the real game docwagon always shows up, normal costs and the like still exist (basic you have to pay like 500 :nuyen: for an HRT, for example) but they do always show up. |
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Jan 17 2005, 07:05 PM
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#165
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Wow. Consider the usage of the word a slip. I'm not a hatemonger and that wasn't the heart nor spirit of the usage. There are so many people that use that word in conjunction with the definition of something being odd or non-sexually queer that it just came out that way. Please understand that I'm not making any jabs at homosexuals here... that wasn't my point. If you were offended, I apologize. I too know that there is another meaning for the word and unlike the PC movement, I am not offended when words are used in a peculiar way with alternative meanings to them. However, I shouldn't expect the same of everyone. Consider me schooled. ;) On the topic of DocWagon, I like the idea of there being a set number of DocWagon teams out there to scoop up the dying. Maybe linking something equivalent to a physical damage overflow timer bar to the character when they hit the dirt. Not being taxied out of a zone before the timer bar elapses means a hit to one's stats (temporarily), similar to how they do it in SWG. |
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Jan 17 2005, 07:11 PM
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#166
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Thats definitely up for revision and extended discussion. How do you guys think the Matrix should be interpretted in game terms? I'm a fan of the way the Genesis console game did it, and of course a heavy-duty engine could allow for a greater skinnability for megacorp themes.
A combination of WoW and CoH approaches towards NPC population. WoW's NPCs function with a great level of intelligence, or seeming intelligence. It lends to the illusion that when you log out, the world continues to churn without you. CoH's approach is less intelligent, but a greater crowd. Every NPC should be interactable with and every one should have a story to tell. Thats the ideal. How attainable that is will be constrained by the engine. I would very much like to have "crowd" NPCs that move in horde-step with one another from one part of the city to the next, growing and shrinking, to simulate a bustling metropolis.
Engine constraints, once again. Ideally I'd like to use a package like Havok2 engine and put as much of the physics one can hammer down with a nail client-side to prevent choking the bandwidth prematurely. That would allow for a greater level of interactability with the environment than in any other MMO to date. NPC distractions from throwing debris? Yes. Using a rocket launcher on a building is a toughy though. I'd like to say yes. But thats probably the wrong answer. If you free-for-all building destruction, after 3 months from going live Seattle would be a pile of smouldering rubble, justice systems not withstanding. Perhaps a building hit points or condition monitor, with threat results from attacking, IF the building is in a place that is fair game, or an integral part of a Johnson-based mission.
Time? Yes. Day/Night cycle most definitely, but accelerated to cycle once every 2 hours. Runners will not need to eat and sleep in-game. However, eating, drinking and resting will have positive effects and generate some advantages. Lifestyle upkeep and contact upkeep will be required once every week. (Unless the lifestyle has been permanently purchased)
Yes. I'm thinking Tweedle-dum Tweedle-dee style toxic shaman and blood mage. DrJest, you make a poignant argument. Subscription free, but perma-death enabled. Subscription equals additional benefits such as player-housing, player association membership and DocWagon contract. Fantastic idea. That really satisfies a number of things, too. Kudos! --GreyPawn --Shadowrun-Online.com |
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Jan 17 2005, 07:13 PM
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#167
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Also, a Doc Wagon Team doesn't need to be able to grab just one person at a time. If the crap goes down, the ambulance can scoop up a few, plus any more on the way to the hospital. Maybe between 2 and 4, depending on the response (ambulance, chopper, etc..).
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Jan 17 2005, 07:19 PM
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#168
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Yeah, that would be alright. If it was set up in a similar manner to the style of SR2 design, that would work for me. If done that way, it would be a mini game then for deckers, no? Might be kinda cool for decker characters to see a little halo around I/O ports when they come across them in the game world, so they know possible areas to connect to the matrix besides their homes. How will Matrix personas look, if at all different? Regarding your answer to the populace thing, will there be effects on the crowds like stray fire and area of effects on spells, for example? Will killing portions of the crowd generate negative ticks on your character with Lone Star (similar to the Corben Dallas' driving license infraction element in The 5th Element). Say, kill civilians and you get negative points that need to be paid for or cleared off your record with a decker if you are spotted in the act. The game Fable for the Xbox does something similar to this when you start murdering or stealing things in the game. |
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Jan 17 2005, 10:57 PM
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#169
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Sorry, but if you kill innocent civilians, you shouldn't get a 'negative tick' that you can pay for or have a decker easily remove. It should be something that is at best difficult to remove, and at worst, downright impossible.
You can't make killing a casual action that carries little consequence (I am talking the killing of innocents like school children, passersby, etc...). |
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Jan 17 2005, 11:04 PM
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#170
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
True, but for an MMO (an abstraction of an abstraction), you have to come up with some way of dealing with it, if you're going to include stray shots (ie civie deaths) as part of the game. Rather than having a legal element built into the game where a runner has to get a lawyer, spend time in court, then possibly do time in a prison, I would think there would be an abstract way of representing sloppy work.
If it were a monetary penalty, albeit a large one, that would limit the amount of times things got out of hand in public places. And I wasn't inferring that it would be easy to remove if a decker handled it. I'm thinking that it would be a hard Matrix excursion (however its going to be handled) to delete or change the information. Paying for it might represent the whole legal process without bogging down an action game with Perry Mason and Matlock overtures. |
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Jan 17 2005, 11:26 PM
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#171
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
You don't need to bog down gameplay with legal proceedings. Paying out'legal fees' and whatnot (basically fining the player), gives the player the feeling that killing innocents "will only result in a fine".
As in RL, even stray shots will get you thrown in the slammer. Allowing players to buy their way out of the consequences of sloppy work is something I wouldn't dismiss entirely. If they have the right contacts, they could pay out by bribing the right people. The 'right people' are not easy to get ahold of most of the time though, and could require a small 'service', as a show of good faith. If said contacts aren't available, either from the player's own contacts, or their friends', I could see a character being put in the slammer for awhile. (Time to play that alt character for a bit...) edit: And who says that doing time couldn't be a part of the game. You show up, kick someone's ass or get yours kicked the first day. Work the guards for kickbacks. Work your connections on the outside to get stuff in. Plan an escape. Prison would represent so many great possibilities. Added to that, you would be in there with players with whom you already share at least one thing in common with =) Is this just my raving, or does anybody else see some great potential in this? Imagine you're playing a decker who got busted doing a wire tap on a government official. You worked your contacts and got a good lawyer to get your sentence reduced, but you still have to survive a little time in prison. If you survive the ordeal, you will no doubt have a slew of new, useful contacts, and possibly a prison tat or too, along with a bit of rep. And let's not forget the imfamous 'Criminal SIN'. |
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Jan 17 2005, 11:28 PM
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#172
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
If Civies, PCs/NPCs get shot in public there should be a Lonestar High Threat Response team there in moments laying a thourough and severe butt whupin'.
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Jan 17 2005, 11:48 PM
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#173
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Actually, that's a pretty sweet idea. I had thought of something similar while an injured player was healing at the hospital, but jail time would be pretty cool. I think it might be better if the times were adjusted for the abstract nature of the game, but switching to an alt would be an acceptable penalty for getting caught... especially when you're really jonesing to play your main toon. Jail should be reserved for the serious crimes (murder), fines for the minor crimes (getting caught with weapons). I don't think a jail scenario is really necessary in the sense that you'd be playing your character in the slammer. He/she should just be 'locked' until the time has passed. |
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Jan 18 2005, 01:11 AM
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#174
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Only in certain neighborhoods. Life is pretty cheap in a lot of the areas of the Sixth World. |
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Jan 18 2005, 01:28 AM
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#175
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Thus considered. Honestly, what I found offensive was its defense; a slip, while I'm eager to stamp it out, is depressingly sufficiently ingrained into popular culture to be forgivable.
I have to disagree with this one. Think about the person on the street: do they have a story to tell? Probably not. Or at least not one relevant to the runners. I have a story to tell, but no Shadowrunner is going to care about it (nor would most of you); it just doesn't apply. ~J |
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