 Shadowrun Online - The MMO, What are your thoughts? |
  |
 Sep 6 2005, 07:06 AM
Post
#251
|
|
|
Horror  Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445  |
Somehow, I'm not seeing instanced Dante's and Instanced Renraku ARC being all that hot. I think it might hurt immersion.
|
 |
 
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 07:11 AM
Post
#252
|
|
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294 |
It could work, with a combination of instanced standard runs, and scripted big stuff.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 08:09 AM
Post
#253
|
|||||||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Combining instance zoning for a more "private run" feel with open-to-all areas is the best way to go. Over-instancing can hurt immersion, but so can overpopulation. The trick is finding the balance.
Criticism is welcome. It helps to refine the design. The constructive type is craved, but all is welcome. As for Photoshop costs, The GIMP, SodiPodi and Inkscape are three decent open-source style Photoshop alternatives that would do the job just as well. The Player Developer Program isn't for everyone, but it is an option available and will be one of the biggest sources of new non-mission content in the game world.
It is doubtful that Microsoft would sell or even lease the license. While SRO's proposal met with rave reviews at E3, Microsoft is patient and calculating. They will wait for reviews and hard statistics regarding the Xbox release of the Shadowrun FPS before giving our MMO project a thumbs-up or down. If we had been 3 months quicker, it very likely could have been the other way around. Luckily, time gives us time to refine and polish.
Not off-limits. Just more dangerous. There will be areas that are much more dangerous than other places, just like in the real game.
It is the nature of players in an online environment to group in order to overcome challenges they might otherwise be unable to tackle. Group play promotes community, and community bolsters a game from the bottom up. This in mind, what does one call a group of runners? What happens if that group doubles in size out of necessity or desire to grow? This type of situation is capped in the pen&paper version of Shadowrun simply because a GM or even several GMs cannot keep track of all the players participating in the game world. This obstacle is removed in an online persistent state world, however. Theoretically, dozens, hundreds, and even thousands of runners could align themselves with each other towards a common goal, and so an in-game mechanism must be in place to facilitate this. Hence- Player Corporations. Don't let the name fool you though. There are several different types of Player Corps. Player Corps, Initiatory Groups and Organized Gangs. And we are definitely open to suggestions along those lines. If your Shadowrun character lead a "group" of runners, what kind of group would it be? |
||||||||
|
|
|
||||||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 08:21 AM
Post
#254
|
|||
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
What he was referring to was the fact that because he has an extreme distaste for open PvP, and especially given the fact that open PvP is inevitably dominated by the 1337 who are geared up for newbieslaying, the Z-zone is effectively off-limits because he will never go there. Because non-consentual PvP only ruins his game, not adds to it. I feel the same way. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 08:41 AM
Post
#255
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
By the same token, lack of PvP ruins the game. IMO there is no happy medium, though I'll be pleasantly impressed if otherwise is proved.
~J |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 10:29 AM
Post
#256
|
|
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Non-consentual PvP is not something I consider a necessity for the game, primarily because the pen&paper did not facilitate it. In fact, it tends to exacerbate problems and raise false positives on balancing issues.
For now, for sake of discussion, assume all PvP in SRO is in some way consentual. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 12:35 PM
Post
#257
|
|
|
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,978 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New Jersey, USA Member No.: 500 |
Would I be stupid to just suggest a MUSH for interested players?
No, no pretty graphics. However, they can be quite immersive, and they are free. |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 12:39 PM
Post
#258
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
but is it really "non consensual" pvp if a zone is dictated pvp, and yyou willingly enter that zone?
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:07 PM
Post
#259
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Yes. The simple truth of the matter is that if you have zones with individual content and that zone is open PvP, the only option open to players such as myself is not to go there. Can you imagine not being able to go into the barrens in a Shadowrun game? The very idea is unbelieveable. Would you like to have entire zones made off limit to you because it radically changes play styles to something you hate? It's not worth the money or time if you're basically a second class player of the game no matter how good of a PvE player you are. By definition, such things make part of the game non-consensual PvP. SWG is a good example where the use of rebel/empire content opens you to PvP, I dropped that game within a month. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:08 PM
Post
#260
|
|
|
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Well, I am glad the the rumors of its demise have been greatly exaggerated. Thanks for the updates Greypawn.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:10 PM
Post
#261
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
The happy medium is PvP servers and Non-PvE servers. That way I can play the game I want to play, and not be force to play the game you want to play. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:13 PM
Post
#262
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Guild War uses this model. In a Shadowrun version of this, the key 'runner' bars would likely be the open-to-all zones. All adventures are instance zones. One could have free-for all zones *IF* the only content there was for PvP. After trying a number of MMO, this is the only model I'd play in the future. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:42 PM
Post
#263
|
|
|
Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
I agree. Saying "PvP is consentual only, but we have open PvP zones, and they're the only places to get X" is as good as saying "If you don't like PvP, you're screwed."
Fox's use of the SWG Empire/Rebel system, for example. And the Archives in the Matrix Online, for another example. They were, hands down, the best place to get money, but you risked being ganked by some jerk if you set foot in. That's not right. Now, if you're going to be stripping whole areas for the game of Urban Brawl, and the only thing in the area is PvP and players, and there is no gameplay advantage to being a PvPer or not - then it would be acceptable. It would keep the competition-junkies like the person who's desire for PvP over roleplay ruined my MxO experiance happy, and it would keep those of us who despise non-consentual PvP happy that they're out of our hair and busy beating each other up, while those of us who are actually trying to run the Shadows can do so. However, I have some more concerns. 1: How are you going to handle HP and death. For that matter, how are you going to handle anything? Is it going to be (as close as possible) SR3? SR4? Or will it be something that in no way resembles the SRd6 rules that we all know, and incorporates such an archaic function as hit points? I ask because, in the SR3 ruleset, the differences between very advanced characters and starting PC characters, while vast, are less vast than the difference between, say, a starting EQ character, and a high level jerk who's been playing since day 1. The reason this is is beause in SR3, bullets are deadly. A newbie stands a stastical chance - mind you, not the best chance, but it is a good chance - of putting down even an oldbie with one good shot from his Ares Predator. And Ares Predators aren't exactly the uber-leet ultra-rare drop, either. In fact, they're the most abundant gun in the sprawl, if the street index has anything to say about it. This, for example, makes a world of difference. SR3 characters who are starting out, are professionals. They are generally competent at doing what they do, and unlike other game systems, there are no huge jumps up in overall power level, simply going up in bits. As opposed to starting characters in a game like, say, Final Fantasy XI, where players, ostensibly trained and competent warriors, start out standing a very good chance of having your ass handed to you by small woodland animals. Part of the reason is because there is no such thing as HP in Shadowrun. The best way to not die is to not get shot at all. The second-best way to not die is to be a troll with beyond-sane Body, Dermal III and full Milspec armor. :) So, how is this going to be handled? Will it be a system that I can say "Wooo! Resist 9DDD, biiiitch!" |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 02:54 PM
Post
#264
|
|
|
Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
for the record, my comment was for that, pvp only zones, where the only thing there to really see is pretty pictures. i agree that content in the pvp zones is stupid, like in the game Dark Ages of Camelot, where some of the higher level quests took you into the pvp zones, yes, you were AROUND the level, but when you have a grou of all 50's, it's going to take 2, 3 or even 4 groups if you've got more than one 44-49 level person doing quests out there.
|
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 03:57 PM
Post
#265
|
|||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
That's… not remotely true, in my opinion. I think you're still thinking of all the MMORPG PCs as RPG PCs, which they aren't to 99+% of the in-game population.
The problem I'm bringing up is one of human nature. I don't want to play a game filled with people waiting by some important location with a rubber stamp in hand to stamp their kills on the side of their monitor/computer. Neither do I want to play a game where the very real aspect of counter-Shadowrunning, betrayals, and other reasons a Shadowrunner may end up dead at the hands of another Shadowrunner doesn't exist. Granted I'm not in your target market in the first place. Well, I suppose I am arguably, but I'm in the part that I can state with reasonable certainty that you will miss—the people who are looking for the role-playing experience of a pen-and-paper game as opposed to the "role-playing" of a computer "role-playing" game. ~J |
||||
|
|
|
||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 05:46 PM
Post
#266
|
|||
|
Old Man Jones Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,415 Joined: 26-February 02 From: New York Member No.: 1,699 |
That is an opinion. One that a whole lot of people don't share. I for one would not mind PvP, but I wouldn't lose any sleep if it wasn't there. -karma |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:14 PM
Post
#267
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
I've seen the 'role-playing' of the typical PvP player. It is nothing I wish to see again. Besides, the quote you responded to stated specifical that the best solution is PvP servers and non-PvP servers. Any yet you respond with a statement that indictes that won't work for you. Why? |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:24 PM
Post
#268
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
On the PvP servers there will be the "typical PvP player" you mention. On the non-PvP servers there will be no PvP.
That's pretty much it right there. ~J |
|
|
|
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:31 PM
Post
#269
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
That's what I thought. One of the most common 'features' of the typical PvP player is the insistance that they be able to force non-PvP players into becoming their targets. It's a reprehensible attitude. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:37 PM
Post
#270
|
|||||||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Quite welcome. And thanks for the lively discussion! It takes alot more than a first person shooter to halt the grinding gears of SRO.
Tricky question. HP in Shadowrun could actually be broken down into digits and hit points representative of the status bar. You could mathematically represent the same damage done from a 9M gun by giving L,M,S,D values, and this is probably the way we'll go with regards to how to handle the backend of the health meter. While it will still be represented as a 4-stage meter, the behind-the-scenes calculations will be much more precise, allowing for fractions of L.
The hybrid of skills and karma gain will present a unique version of this ages old dilemma, how to reward time spent but not hinder a new player from the get-go. A karma level 1 character in SRO will have a decent statistical possibility of killing a karma level 10 character. The chance of a karma level 10 character however, will not be exponentially better, but rather hierarchically. |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:49 PM
Post
#271
|
|||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
But an extension of a reasonable one—if you don't need to watch your back, in my opinion, it fails at being Shadowrun. It's a social problem for which there is no reasonable technical solution. ~J |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 06:59 PM
Post
#272
|
|||
|
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 150 Joined: 31-August 05 Member No.: 7,660 |
Illogical in the extreme. I don't have to watch my back against the other players at my gaming table. I only have to watch out for NPCs. The same can easily apply to a MMO. I sense nothing more in your comments than gamer who wants to whack my character online. Frankly I don't want to play with such, and I won't buy into any game no matter how attractive the setting that forces me to. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 07:03 PM
Post
#273
|
|||||||
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
We start off with a difference in play styles.
And move to a fundamental misunderstanding. In an MMORPG, the PCs are the NPCs of the tabletop world.
Note to self: do not hire Fox1 in any capacity that requires evaluating people. ~J |
||||||
|
|
|
||||||
|
Sep 6 2005, 07:52 PM
Post
#274
|
|||
|
Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 13-January 05 Member No.: 6,974 |
Sure! They can go right ahead and force an unwilling participant into pvp if they can, But remeber, if you don't want to risk as much going into the barrens on a run, hire a rigger to get you and your mates in without the hassle of wading through the eager 'participants' of PvP. |
||
|
|
|
||
|
Sep 6 2005, 08:15 PM
Post
#275
|
|
|
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
PvP Riggers or folk with a Great Dragon ATGM.
~J |
|
|
|
|
|
Lo-Fi Version | Time is now: 23rd February 2025 - 04:51 AM |
Topps, Inc has sole ownership of the names, logo, artwork, marks, photographs, sounds, audio, video and/or any proprietary material used in connection with the game Shadowrun. Topps, Inc has granted permission to the Dumpshock Forums to use such names, logos, artwork, marks and/or any proprietary materials for promotional and informational purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not affiliated with the Dumpshock Forums in any official capacity whatsoever.