 Shadowrun Online - The MMO, What are your thoughts? |
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 Sep 6 2005, 08:16 PM
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#276
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Horror  Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445  |
And when someone decides to engage the rigger, and all of his riders, in non-consentual PvP by way of RPG and laser and tank fire?
Remember, if it is there, the greifers will get ahold of it. I'd rather not have to plan every excercusion by means of consulting present-day military leaders in Iraq who plan armed convoys through Baghdad. |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:17 PM
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#277
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Really, Kage. This is nothing like the Barrens in Shadowrun. The worst you'll run into there, unless you REALLY torq off the wrong people, are some gangers who want to hit you up for your money and shoes. The Shadowrunners in the barrens don't hassle other Shadowrunners randomly, they CERTAINLY don't turn it into freaking Falluja. |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:19 PM
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#278
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Spoken like someone who hasn't read the gangs section of SRComp recently, or any of the flavourtext about the barrens. Red Hot Nukes?
~J |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:20 PM
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#279
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Gangs aren't an armed insurgency, Kage. How would they get ahold of that kind of stuff, and how would they pay for it?
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Sep 6 2005, 08:22 PM
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#280
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ask the writers, not me. I don't think you understand how much they've taken over in canon, though.
~J |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:23 PM
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#281
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
In any event, you're not even talking about gangs, you're talking about roaming greif PKers.
Utter troll-shit. |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:31 PM
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#282
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
I may have missed something—what exactly is your argument here? The only one I saw was that gangs wouldn't have that kind of gear. Two issues there: one, as you point out, I was not talking about gangs. Second, as I've already addressed, they do have that kind of gear. The more important issue is that unless Riggers are made into invulnerable taxi drivers, they're a non-answer to the proposed problem.
~J |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:34 PM
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#283
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
How, exactly, do gangers get Grand Dragon AGTMs? Those are expensive, and where are the scum-gangers getting that kind of funding? Where do they get the Launch Weapons skill to use it? And they certainly don't crawl around blowing up any vehicle at random.
My point is that this is insane. Your runners do not say "Okay, we tool up with the heavy gear and go out to the Barrens looking for some weaker runners to make dead." You don't do that kind of crap, unless you want the whole fucking Shadow community to turn you into a fine red paste. |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:39 PM
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#284
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
This is incorrect.
Like I said, ask the writers. Though I've got some guesses, as these gangs are definitely depicted as being on a different power level than what you're thinking. IIRC the Red Hot Nukes are comprised entirely of adepts, for instance.
Welcome to the world of the MMORPG. Please check your sanity at the door. ~J |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:53 PM
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#285
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
If the game world is supposed to simulate real life, it seems very beliveable to me. Even now in tame 2005 Washington DC there are neighborhoods I wouldn't visit after dark. The whole idea in SR is that characters have a much greater risk of dying than in other games. Even if the Barrens were instanced, and had no other PCs, you might still get killed by a troop of Halloweeners that come around the corner. Would the fact that it wasn't another player make that death any less painful? I guess the whole thing would revolve around what does death actually mean? In the tabletop version, I always knew that if I took a bullet in the chest there was a good chance that Doc-Wagon would come save my sorry butt - I'd guess that the online version would have the same option. In that case, I'd guess the primary incentive not to die is financial. Paying for med-evac every 10 minutes would be expensive. ...I'm trying to think about ways that you could dis-incent ganking without sacrificing realism.
any thoughts? |
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Sep 6 2005, 08:57 PM
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#286
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Just start assaying PCs bad rep for murdering other PCs. Especially without provocation.
Sure, a group of Halloweeners are a possible threat, but one even newbie Shadowrunners are prepared to deal with. 250+ Karma Shadowrunners with laser weapons and GMC Banshees joyriding around lasering them isen't. It's unrealistic, even by Shadowrun's standards. So if people make a habit of doing that kind of crap, one day when they log off, when they go to log back on, they're informed that their ganker was assassinated in his sleep by the contacts of one or more of his victims, don't be a dickwad next time. |
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Sep 6 2005, 09:10 PM
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#287
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
Do you think gankers would waste time doing that even if they didn't know if there was a PC in the crowd? And if they wouldn't be able to tell after the fact? example: Joe the Ganker shoots a pedestrian. The target goes down, clutching his chest, and crawls toward a doorway. A second shot finishes the target off, and the body lays there for 5 minutes (at this point police, or ghouls, or whatever show up and take away corpse). Joe has no idea if he shot a real PC or [more likely] one of the hundreds of NPCs randomly spawning in the area. Either way, Joe's 'heat' [or whatever you want to call it] has increased, making life harder for himself down the road. Wouldn't Joe get bored with this pretty quick? [edit]The really hard part would be building a realistic set of responses that could accurately mimic real-life behavior. Don't know how do-able it is, but worth discussing. |
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Sep 6 2005, 09:11 PM
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#288
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Running, running, running Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,220 Joined: 18-October 04 From: North Carolina Member No.: 6,769 |
you would think, but it seems like most of the gankers online have not only the attention span of roughly 16 seconds, but a long term memory of about half that, so it's always fun! |
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Sep 6 2005, 09:18 PM
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#289
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,408 Joined: 31-January 04 From: Reston VA, USA Member No.: 6,046 |
The other piece of this is that he's building heat regardless of whether his victims are PCs or NPCs. If only one in every twenty of his victims are PCs, his heat will go through the roof in no time, and the cops/other runners/aggrieved contacts will have picked up or assinated the guy before he's had much chance to do much real harm.
I don't think Joe-the-Ganker would want to waste countless hours building up an uber-character just to get arrested because he randomly shot a 40 NPCs (that would regenerate later anyway). Especially if he could go to the Urban Brawl zone and get it out of his system without penalty. |
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Sep 6 2005, 10:49 PM
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#290
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
1. What does "arrested" mean? If PvP is a part of the game's design, then - if the current crop of MMORPGs is anything to go by - there will be few to none negative consequences for pkilling. Hell, the reality of the matter is that in most games, people have to work hard to get warned (never mind suspended) for blatant and gratuitous abuse of the rules of conduct, and virtually never get banned - unless they do something the company running the game views as detrimental to their image and/or sales. 2. Hardcore MMORPG gankers are not in the business for the thrill of the hunt, a high reputation, great PvP reward items, or any similar in-game reason - they're doing it primarily to fuck over other people playing the game, and make sure that they ruin their fun. In other words, they're out to hurt someone. They're pathological little fucks that can't be relied on to act rationally - not even if a system existed that punished their actions, and one doesn't. |
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Sep 6 2005, 11:33 PM
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#291
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Lone Star will be a force to be reckoned with, and will be the basic measure of justice in the game world. Consequences for random NPC killing will be incarceration, execution, fine or worse. In some cases, Heat rating can be reduced by performing runs for the Star and acting as Bounty Hunter. Players will be held accountable for obeying the laws in the areas in which they travel. Violations of the Rules of Conduct or Terms of Service will be dealt with immediately and with great efficiency. Initial violation will net warning. Second will cause suspension. Second violation will trigger banning.
I disagree. Hardcore MMO Players are just that. Hardcore. The Griefer is a different animal entirely, and thrives on the misery they can incite through their own anonymity. The best method, historically, of limiting the number of griefers is to make player decisions have lasting effects in the game world and provide an easy means for the community to identify such undesirable elements. If Greg the Griefer figures out a way of scamming someone out of sniper rifles using a game mechanic bug, that victim can spread the information about the scammer, and share a No-Service or Kill-on-Sight warrant with his player corp comrades, effectively cutting that griefer off from a larger portion of the game world over time. More on the Rigger PvP question later. -GreyPawn |
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Sep 6 2005, 11:58 PM
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#292
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,070 Joined: 7-February 04 From: NYC Member No.: 6,058 |
Have you played many MMORPGs? This sort of idealism is nice, but it has no grounding in reality.
I'm not sure exactly what you're disagreeing with, since I drew no parallels between "hardcore players" and griefers. As for dealing with them... Please name one game which has managed to significantly discourage griefing in a PvP environment, and explain why you think any other game following a similar business model will be different. There's no argument that griefers are highly detrimental to the enjoyment of many others, and there's one likely reason they're virtually never dealt with - if you compare the money it costs to monitor and get rid of ban-worthy assholes, and the money lost by actually permanently banning them with the money lost when people actually leave over ganking (instead of just grumbling, or changing servers), it's simply not worth it to the people running the games to police their players effectively. Money talks. They establish PvE servers to provide areas where the worst kind of griefing will not be an issue, and ignore everything else. |
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Sep 7 2005, 05:58 AM
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#293
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
The person in the quote was referencing griefers as "hardcore" players. That is what I disagreed with. The hardcore playerbase are loyal fans and avid gamers who prefer to spend more time with the game than the casual gamer. This does not necessitate becoming a griefer.
World of Warcraft to some extent. And they've done it with a surprising and often overlooked game mechanic- the ability to communicate across the PvP divide. Griefing usually accompanies harsh language and the removal of this platform prevents the victim in the situations where griefing is occuring from being further harmed as much, at least psychologically. As I did mention, much much earlier in the thread, we do plan PvP and PvE servers. While removing language is not an option, the added threat of Heat, lasting consequences in the form of No-Service and KOS lists should help to diminish some of the motive for griefing.
Precisely. The financial reprecussions of dying is the primary drawback.
Good suggestion. Even in the most lawless place, someone is vying for power and trying to exert control over what happens. Rampant and purposeless player killing in such areas is only detrimental to the player doing the killing.
Doing such a thing would increase the Heat level exponentially for the heavy geared up runners while effectively netting them no financial or karma gain. Not only is there no point, but doing such would have a detrimental effect on the character when other content is available to experience. Does the griefer character really want Lone Star NPCs to camp his safehouse for 72 hours looking to play sniper Whack-a-Mole? Wouldn't it be better time spent exploring the first floor basement levels of the Renraku Arcology just before the Shutdown? Now, as for the Rigger PvP element previously mentioned- Riggers will be able to participate in PvP, PvV and VvV combat. If a non-rigger is attacked while in a vehicle, he leaves the vehicle after damage is calculated, if taken, and engages. If a Rigger is within a vehicle when it is attacked, the vehicle checks for damage, and then makes a crash test to determine if the vehicle is still operational and to what extent before entering combat mode. A vehicle may become aggressive to another vehicle or person by entering combat mode if it is equipped with weaponry. From that point, standard combat rules apply. Inhabitants of the vehicle are not harmed unless the vehicle fails its crash test. Shadowrun Online combat will not have any form of a "One-Hit Kill" even from a tank-mounted rail gun. All player participants in a combat situation will have the opporunity to act. This includes Deckers, Riggers and the Astrally Projecting. |
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Sep 7 2005, 11:41 AM
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#294
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
This is worrying. Firstly because it can actually be a means to encourage greiefing (Blasting someone to 9 boxes and saying "Run, piggie, SQUEAL!"), but also because it's insane. Anyone who takes a shot from a tank-mounted railgun should be losing limbs at the least, and only on a very poor shot. In 99/100 cases, I'd say he should be flat-out dead. Naturally, you can't give him flat-out permadeath, but still... |
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Sep 7 2005, 06:13 PM
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#295
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Target Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 13-January 05 Member No.: 6,974 |
I say, give him a Jelly flaw. You have no form, as you have been liquified. It hurts. Lots. |
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Sep 7 2005, 08:26 PM
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#296
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
:rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: :rollin: |
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Oct 24 2005, 07:57 AM
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#297
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Tons of new stuff for you folks to take a look at. The monorail video, Aztechnology teocalli, and Player Owned Buildings section are a few of the newer concepts we've added to the site. Feel free to stop by and give us your thoughts.
-GreyPawn -Shadowrun-Online.com |
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Oct 24 2005, 09:32 AM
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#298
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Horror Group: Members Posts: 5,322 Joined: 15-June 05 From: BumFuck, New Jersey Member No.: 7,445 |
Nice video. If this were '98, I'd be impressed. As it is, this is '05. Still, a nice concept demonstrator, though something that's two ordinary trains plus the distance between them wide, shoulden't be called a 'mono' rail. :P
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Oct 24 2005, 02:39 PM
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#299
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 18-December 04 Member No.: 6,890 |
Was there a Shadowrun MMO concept proposal site with a better looking rough first animation in '98 that I missed out on? We're not quite in the "impress the average onlooker's socks off" phase yet. Mostly still in the "this has never ever been rendered, conceptualized or thought of before for Shadowrun" discovery phase. While we could do that internally, I've always admired some level of transparency in the development process, especially with a game so many have strong feelings about. The monorail is actually a single rail, but the design makes it carry two sets of cars. The jury is still out on it, the height at which it enters the arcology and the scaling. But once again, its just a rough design. |
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Oct 24 2005, 03:39 PM
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#300
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
ON death PD
one's death must be true death. SR is live fast die fast. lose that and you WILL no be in the SR world. I don't ride the bus in sr without a gun. if there is no fear of death there is no thrill of living. "but i don't want my character to die, and start over with a new one" you whine. the pen and paper system solves that problem, its not hard to translate it. quick development. you can develop you runner rather quickly compared to other systems. those lucky and smart enough to live will rise to power and be the envy and hate of those below them. life and death, they are true and absolute. by including them you give a life to the world. greafing will be a small problem, but things will balance. you must realise that a self correcting device will always correct it's self. forced correction will fail as soon as you take you hand off it. spending money on Doc'wagons. Security PCs and NPCs alike. you fellow chummer with a med kit and a stem patch. and you whits, that will keep you alive. P.S. i want you to think of you 5 best gaming stories, the one's you swap with other gamers. the one's you laugh about and make you want to game again. I bet at LEAST 3 of them involve you character dieing, or almost dieing. that is what you rember. not run: a=(random 648,clock) b=(StatCha/johnsonSeed) c=(where random 84,clock) "you mission is ;string a b c;" |
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