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> reasonable powered armour and cyber limbs
Cynic project
post Jan 10 2005, 10:35 PM
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Well, the way I see it is,that no one is going to make mechs.At least for combat in earth.

I do see powered armour and I do see them getting to be rather large..But I mean I see them as ranging from 2.5-4 meters tall and about 1.5-2.5 depending on the meta race in them. But I think anything larger would just make to big of a target. But back to my point, can you make reasonable powered suits in shadowrun,and how would you do it?

And why are cyberlimbs so janky? I have looked them over and for all the coolness factor you can get from them,they seem to be like not as good as the muscle replacement,and bone lacing. But you say they look like they are made of crom,and that's cool. You can get dermal plating to do that,or a tatoo or something...
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Herald of Verjig...
post Jan 10 2005, 10:40 PM
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Reasonable depends on your reasoning. Anthroform drone with one seat could qualify.

Their main benefit is the Swiss Army Arm phenomenon.
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Voran
post Jan 11 2005, 01:14 AM
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Yeah. Cyberarm for the purpose of strength/quickness doesn't really seem a benefit, given the costs and limitations. But cramming that cyberarm or limb full of goodies, as Herald of V pointed out, is a great benefit.
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Cynic project
post Jan 11 2005, 02:33 AM
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Well, what would be a reasonable price for power armour that was about as hard as the currant top of like Mil spec gear,gave ~+6 streangth and limited flight...Or some really good jump and running..Talking about ~50 KPH.
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DocMortand
post Jan 11 2005, 02:41 AM
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probably mid-6 figures. The problem is in designing the bloody things in the first place - arthroform drones can't have the better energy sources because they are drones. I was actually thinking extra large walker myself - it'll be coming up in an upcoming run of mine, so I need to get cracking on the specs myself. :)

[EDIT] By the way, is there a program out there which can design SR drones from Rigger 3? Can NSCRG do that? Ya know, plug and play?[/EDIT]
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Moonstone Spider
post Jan 11 2005, 04:26 AM
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Really there's no reason you need a mecha to get arms. A wheeled vehicle with mechanical arms is perfectly reasonable and I've done such drones more than once. So even that advantage for mecha is gone.

On the other hand legs handle mud vastly better than wheels do, oddly enough a mecha will typically have considerably less ground pressure than a wheeled vehicle (I didn't believe this until people at the mecha propulsion labs showed me the math, although they do assume fairly big feet on a mecha). And legs would probably be better on rough terrain, where wheels would get all screwed up on ruts and rocks a mecha could just step over them.

So a combat mecha would be good if you need a ground drone to handle really bad terrain like mud roads full of ruts. Obviously mechas will dominate in siberia and anywhere else civilized roads aren't developed much.
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Hero
post Jan 11 2005, 04:27 AM
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>DocMortand

You are not fully correct there, a very large Anthroform Drone makes quite base for power armor, as proved with the Power Armor thread a while back. And using a electric fuel cell powerplant will allow for good operational times, combining hydrogen and oxygen to make water whick is broken down again in a small solar cell on the back of unit, so you have your life support and power plant in one nice little package. As for accessories, those are housed in armored modules that are attached to the out hull of the armor, and nice little side effect of using a vehicle chassis for the power armor is that you are basically invulnerable to small arms fire.

Here is the thread Possible Power Armor, and here is what I posted way back then.

HAA-3 Mk. III Powered Armor
Hand: 3
Speed: 57
accel: -
Body: 3
Armor: 6
Sig: 5
Auto: 4
Pilot: 5
Sensor: 4
CF: 0
Load: 395
Seat: 1
Entry: 1b
Fuel: 120PF
Econ: 1.5
Chassis: Large anthro
SI: *
Avail: *
Cost: 416,400
*GM discretion

::Control::
-> There is a special drone computer that takes over much of the target tracking and control, it also is can take control of the vehicle when the pilot is not actively piloting or is incapacitated. The drone computer takes over all of the primary functions of tracking and firing at the target, the pilot only must make a gunnery test. The advanced software package includes Robotic Reflexes 3, Robotic-Pilot Advanced programming, Fuzzy Logic 5, Improved Neural Network Algrorithms 5. Treated as a robot with adaptation pool 10 (+10 to adaptation pool to comprehension test), when not controlled by a pilot.
-> Rigger Adaptation
::Protective::
Enviro
-> Seal Gas/Over-pressurized
::Weapons::
-> 2x Fixed Mounts (one located on each outer forearm, with 1CF ammo bin under the forearm)
::Electronics::
-> ECM/ECCM (mounted on back section in container pods)
::Accessories::
-> 2x Mechanical Arms (Strength 9)
-> Spot Lights

Additions
Dragon™ Mk. I Jump Jets
Cost:30,900Y; Avail: 10/2 months; Weight: 250; SI: 4; Legality: Legal
Dragon™ Mk. Id Jump Jets
Cost: 105,900; Avail: 16/2 months; Weight: 295; SI: 4; Legality: 4P-W
*Typhoon™ Life Support
Cost: 3,400; Avail: 8/14 days; Weight: 50; SI: 2.5; Legality: Legal
Titan™ Gyro System
Cost: 4,000; Avail: 6/48hrs; Weight: x; SI: 1.5; Legality: 4P-W
SL I Interface
Cost: 650; Avail: 4/48 hrs; Weight: x; SI: 1; Legality: 5P-W
SL II Interface
Cost: 900; Avail: 6/48 hrs; Weight: x; SI: 2; Legality: 5P-W
*Ghost™ ECM Pod
Cost: ;50,500 Avail: 8/21 days; Weight: 20; SI: 4; Legality: 4P-W
*Ghost™ ECCM Pod
Cost: 40,500; Avail: 6/21 days; Weight: 12; SI: 3.5; Legality: Legal
BattleTac FDDM
Cost: 35,000; Avail: 10/21 days; Weight: x; SI: 3; Legality: 4P-W
BattleTac IVIS
Cost: 25,000; Avail: 8/14 days; Weight: x; SI: 3; Legality: 4P-W
Autosoft Accel™ Interface
Cost: 5,000; Avail: 8/14 days; Weight: x; SI: 2; Legality: Legal
5,000 8/14 days
HyperTask™ Robot System
Cost: 10,000; Avail: 8/14 days; Weight: x; SI: 3; Legality: 4P-W
Fire Support™ Software
Cost: 75,000; Avail: 6/14 days; Weight: x; SI: 2; Legality: 6P-s
Recon Support™ Software
Cost: 62,500; Avail: 6/14 days; Weight: x; SI: 2; Legality: Legal
Assault Support™ Software
Cost: 75,000; Avail: 6/14days; Weight: x; SI: 2; Legality: 6P-S
* = (contained in special armored pod, has same armor value as vehicle)

Special
Dragon™ Jump Jets
the Dragon™ has the following profile
Hand: 3
Speed: 120
Accel: 12
Body: 3
Armor: 6
Sig: 5
CF: -
Load: Special*
Fuel: Jet 180l
Econ: .4km/L
T/L: vtol
*The Flight Pack has enough lift to ge the Power Armor into the air and anything the power armor is equipped with it.

Dragon™ Deception Flight Pack is the same as the Dragon™ Flight Pack with a ED 4 system

Protection
Typhoon™ Life Support Module counts as a 24hr life support unit in an armored storage modular with an armor rating of 6

Weapons
Titan™ Gyro System counts as a rating 4 recoil adjuster
Smartlink I/II interface adds smart link bonuses of appropriate level

Electronics
HyperTask™ Robotic System Firmware is a rating 10 multi-object manipulation program that provides +10 dice to any IVIS pool, must have BattleTac IVIS module
Ghost™ ECM Module counts as a rating 4 ECM in an armored storage modular with an armor rating of 6
Ghost™ ECCM Module counts as a rating 4 ECCM in an armored storage modular with an armor rating of 6
Autosoft Accel™ Interface is a rating 5 Autosoft Interpretation system with two chip slots. System supports the Support™ Autosoft Package. See below
Support™ Autosofts come in three models Fire, Recon, and Assualt
Fire Support™ - - - - - - - - - Counts as Sharpshooter and Clear Sight Autosofts each at rating 5
Recon Support™ - - - - - - - Counts as Performance and Clear Sight Autosofts each at rating 5
Assault Support™ - - - - - - Counts as Performance and Sharpshooter Autosofts each at rating 5
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DocMortand
post Jan 11 2005, 04:36 AM
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Sweet - thanks for reprinting the stats! I know I plan on going full mecha over here rather than arthroform (don't ask...I'm looking at not power armor but Battlemech) but the stats help figure out what to look into and what to change.

Not to mention I may use that as a run all by itself. :vegm:
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Cynic project
post Jan 11 2005, 04:41 AM
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Well, let's face it size is not a good thing in battle,THe bigger you are,the bigger a target you are. So the reason i see powered armour suits and not 10 meter tall mech is because those would both be too big of targets and incapable of getting into a lot of areas. Namely caves and buildings.
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Hero
post Jan 11 2005, 04:42 AM
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No problem, just doing what I can.
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Cynic project
post Jan 11 2005, 04:50 AM
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ANd Hero it is a nice idea..I just don't think the drone idea is a good one.
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Hero
post Jan 11 2005, 05:03 AM
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The power armor I designed stands about as tall as a troll if piloted by a human or similar or smaller sized (meta)human, and if piloted by an ork or troll, add about a meter at least to the height of the pilot. The suites could operate in some of the larger building though, like malls and archologies, but if they tried to get into smaller building there would be problems. But these are not really meant for storming really cramped space's, foot sloggers are better for that type of combat, these suits are more for storming heavily defended bunkers and bases or providing highly mobile fire support unit (think Rotory Cannon).
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DocMortand
post Jan 11 2005, 05:05 AM
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Actually, the battletech mechs that I always thought to be more useful were the specialty mechs like ForestMech for firefighting/lumber work or Urbanmech for construction, etc.

Besides, the Tactical Armor systems in the anime series Gasaraki (please don't shoot me) always struck me as a fascinating way of dealing with manueverability in urban situations.

Meh. I'm sure this has been discussed umpteen times.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 11 2005, 07:02 AM
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Here's one of the earliest Power Armor discussion on the current forum. That's where John Campbell designed the Ares Spartan.
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DocMortand
post Jan 11 2005, 07:28 AM
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Yeah, his website where he has the stats for the Spartan blew me away - perfectly done for a Ares promotional flyer.

I'm still looking for the stats of a WH40K Dreadnought tho...*chuckle*

LOL - anyone think about designing a Big O style over-the-top walker? Talk about a target...Altho I think the only way to penetrate that style would be naval weapons.
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Voran
post Jan 11 2005, 12:30 PM
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Techwise, I could see armored suits, but not hardsuits like the Knight Sabers or Iron Man, maybe something bulkier like the K-Suits that the AD police in BGC wear.

Power sources would be interesting. Since the tech isn't at the RIFTS "Everyone carries a mini-nuke reactor" level yet.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 11 2005, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE (DocMortand)
anyone think about designing a Big O style over-the-top walker? Talk about a target...Altho I think the only way to penetrate that style would be naval weapons.

Depends on exactly how big you make them. Due to the very abstract handling of vehicle size and weight of both the vehicle and armor, it only really comes down to what you decide the Body rating of the Mega-Walker to be, and how high a Load rating you give it.

You need 40 Vehicle Armor to be immune to ATGMs. Vehicle armor weighs (Body^2) x 5kg per point, right? That means 9,800kg for a Body-7 vehicle, 12,800kg for a Body-8 vehicle, 16,200kg for Body-9, 20,000kg for Body-10.

Realistically, of course, very large walker chasses should have far lower Loads relative to total weight than wheeled or tracked ground vehicles. The rules already make handling such a monstrosity at 40+ armor nearly impossible, so that's fine.
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mfb
post Jan 11 2005, 05:14 PM
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the cyberlimb attribute rules are enough to make a grown man cry. we're hammering out some nice houserules for it, at shadowland--basically, making attribute raises up to the RML cost no essence and much less nuyen. also, bringing prosthetic limbs back into SR (i understand that SR1 and SR2 had low-attribute limbs that you could take when a full-on cyberlimb would be too expensive, or something).
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Hero
post Jan 12 2005, 04:07 AM
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I never got around to making the Space Marine Dreadnaught like I wanted to, but I just started it up today, so it should be done by tomarrow. I dont know if I should post it in this thread or make a new thread just for it.
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DocMortand
post Jan 12 2005, 07:05 AM
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Eh, post it here - this topics been semi-corrupted as it is, and it is in the same field. :)
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Hero
post Jan 12 2005, 07:48 AM
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Well here is my SR conversion of the Space Marine Dreadnought, it is capable of seating all (meta)humans comfortably, and has the versatility that the Warhammer 40K Dreadnought had. It is very expensive but then again most military vehicles are very expensive by nature, look at modern main battle tanks, they cost in the millions of government dollars to purchase..

T.A.W (Tactical. Assault. Walker) Mark IV Dreadnought
Hand: 2/2
Speed: 72
Accel: -
Body: 4
Armor: 12
Sig: 2
Autonav: 4
Sensor: 7
CF: 0
Load: 496
Seat: 1
Entry: 1h
Fuel: 160L Diesel
Econ: 4km/l
Chassis: XL-Walker
SI: *
Avail: *
Cost: 2,535,850
*GM discretion

::Control::
• Drive-by-Wires 3
• Rigger Adaptation
• Secondary Controls
::Protective::
• APPS
• Crash Cage
• Enviro Seal Gas/Water/Engine-Seal/Over-pressurized)
• Life-Support (48hr)
::Weapons::
• 2x Modular Weapon Arm(2CF Internal ammo bin; Smartlink II interface)
• 2x Power Claw Arm (Strength: 20; external flame thrower/chaingun)
::Electronics::
• ECM: 6
• ECCM: 6
::Accessories::
• Spot Light

The Mark IV TAW Dreadnought is designed to operate where wheel/tread motivated vehicles would be prohibated by terrain. Armored to withstand large amounts of punishment while handing it out, all while keeping the mobility of walker, while to expensive to field in large numbers it is still a very effective support unit. Its weapons configuration is incredible flexible, as its weapons system's are completely modular in form and nature, it can be equipped with a missile/rocket rack arm and a power claw on the other side or both arms being power claws. The power claw is capable of tearing through a large variety of heavy materials, ranging from bulwark to reinforced concrete, smaller anti-personal weapons are fitted to the forearms like a flame thrower or chaingun. The Mark IV Dreadnaught is small enough where a group of 4 can be transported in a large transport aircraft and be air dropped to the battlefield. Though its cost keeps it from being fielded in large numbers, its combat ability and versatility makes its a very sought after and desirable addition to (para)militaries around the world.
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DocMortand
post Jan 12 2005, 08:09 PM
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It's pretty comparable to light tanks in Rigger 3...impressive. Question is, what kind of weapons can fit in the modular arm? I mean, can you put the Firelance laser, or even a missile launcher in there? Naval weapons? :)

The cost is prohibitive, yes... However, it is more maneuverable, smaller, lighter and just as fast as a light tank. The armor means it can shrug off most medium ordinance - still is vulnerable to the missiles and Panthers out there, but then again so is the light tank. Not only that, but the sensors package is formidable.

By the way - can the dreadnought pack in a drone remote jammer? I would think that would make it a great way of dealing with all those armies of drones.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 12 2005, 08:48 PM
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The cost is, in fact, extremely high, on the Shadowrun scale anyway. Although I assume that's largely thanks to the Drive-By-Wire system -- no, wait, that's only (900 x 0.75 x 3 x 100 =) 202,500 nuyen for 3 levels. Where does that hefty price tag come from? It has a poor Signature and mid-high Electronic Warfare equipment, I'm not seeing any horribly costly equipment on it.

You can get a faster, far better armored and armed, and more stealthy wheeled APC with the same EW-capabilities and the additional capability of transporting troops and gear for less than a third of the price (well under a million), as demonstrated here. The handling is worse, of course, since that design lacks Drive-By-Wire, and there's the issue of the inherent advantages and disadvantages of a walker vs. a wheeled vehicle, so the "mini-mechas" might still be sort of useful for some uses.

With the tracked APC chassis, you can get a vehicle with 38 effective armor, much better EW-capabilities, more stealth, 4/4 handling, dual heavy autocannons with 1,000 ready AV rounds in a remote AA turret, and a D-B-W-3 system for 1.35 million nuyen, and you still get to keep the ability to transport a full squad of infantry. Again, the walker vehicles are useful in certain roles where extreme mobility is required, but for just about anything else a conventional vehicle can do the same thing much better at a lower cost.

To get a feeling for just how high a price 2.5 million nuyen is for a vehicle with the canon SR vehicle design rules, this high-performance ground-attack jet fighter costs 2.7 million before SI.

The ~half-mil smaller, lighter armored walkers with high Sig are, IMNSHO, a more reasonable solution for the situations where a conventional vehicle cannot be used. Of course, the Dreadnought was probably not intended to be particularly useful?

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 12 2005, 08:53 PM
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Hero
post Jan 12 2005, 10:26 PM
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->Austere Emancipator

Now that you bring that up, I might have miscalculated something, I'll go through it again to see where I messed up. I am still using the original print of Rigger 3, so that might have something to do with it, I'll have to go through the errata for Rigger 3. I am sure there is away to make it less expensive, while upgrading one or two stats, and keeping the primary feature set.

->DocMortand

The modular arms are small remote turrets, so they are capable of handling any weapon up to the size of a Auto Cannon or Rotary Cannon. And as for jamming drone net work, I believe that is already covered with the ECM, don't quote me on that though. If it is a separate piece of equipment, it can be fitted to the exterior of the armor in a armored equipment module.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 12 2005, 10:42 PM
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Yep, the errata will drop at least 3 x Chassis DP Value x 100 from the final price... something like 270,000 just from the D-B-W-3. But there might be something else as well.

The ECM system, if it's just the basic ECM from the Customization Features list, only counters Sensor Tests to spot the vehicle. With a Sig that low, it basically just makes the vehicle hard to spot for very low-rating Sensors on low-Body vehicles.
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