How subtle can spells be?, Feel my power! Or maybe not... Options

[LinaInverse]

Hail all,

One of my current chars is a Shaman, who tends to lean to the more subtle spells of manips and illusions. I am at a point of planning out my next major set of spell purchases and wanted some input.

My big hangup is when do targets "know" that they are being casted on. In the case of Combat or Elemental Manips, this is a no-brainer obvious given.

But what about spells such as Control Emotions? Does the victim automatically "know" that a spell has been put on him? If so, then does this basically defeat the purpose of this spell? On a more general level, where does the line cross between an NPC's right to "ignore his feelings" because he "knows better"? I'm mainly concerned that, even if I got this spell up to a ludicrous force (say Force 8 or better) and casted against the weakest-willed schmoe out there (Willpower 1), and basically have complete control of his emotions, but not his "actions". Does this schmoe automatically "know" that his emotions are compromised, and can ignore then (and my desired outcome)?

Emotions in particular came to mind because in BBB Ritual Casting, they use it in an example of a bunch of Shamans using this spell on a Corp Exec to make them "love" the environment (thus changing his decision not to pollute the land). If the Exec knows he's been casted on, wouldn't this immediately render this effect null?

Another spell; "Alter Memory"; does casting this spell on the victim automatically mean the victim knows that he's been hit by a spell? If so, doesn't this render the spell essentially worthless?

I have similar concerns about spells such as Influence (how far can it go) and others, but I'll add those as I can see what people say in general.

[Kagetenshi]

I personally extend the test for seeing spellcasting to apply to noticing that you're the target of a spell regardless of line-of-sight, but that isn't necessarily canon. I also rule that spells are extremely nonobvious unless clearly otherwise; for instance, I require a test for someone hit by a Stunbolt or Manabolt to identify that they've been the target of a spell. Powerbolt is a little more obviously magical.

~J

[toturi]

The PC usually doesn't know he is the target of a spell. His player does. In the case of a combat spell it might manifest as a severe headache. But the PC or NPC doesn't automatically know he was the target of a spell. If he has knowledge of spells and is paranoid, he might suspect something isn't right.

[Black Isis]

With a Control Emotions spell, I'd say the target probably would not realize anything while the spell was actually in effect -- but once it wore off, they would probably figure out something was VERY strange about the way they were acting. Sort of like when you feel euphoric or loopy on drugs and when they wear off you wonder what the hell you were thinking. They may or may not be upset about this -- and that, or even whether or not they really notice that it had to be something totally supernatural probably depends on how far your implant emotions were from their normal feelings.

That said....if you're worried about what a character can do with that spell at Force 8 against someone with Willpower 1....you know, in that case, pretty much ANY spell is going to ruin his day. :) Most people don't have Willpower of 1, though, or a spell at Force 8.

[GrinderTheTroll]

I don't think it made the transition to SR3 from SR1 or SR2 (Grimoires), that said something to the extent that noticing magical activity was related to the force level of the spell. It would need to be inverse or something since a low-level magic F=3 would be easier to notice than say a F=12 manabolt for example. Something akin to a weapon's concealibility.

Obviously observing sorcery on the astral would be a different story than in the physical.

I'll need to pour over my older books, unless someone remembers or knows if this made the move into SR3 (MiTS).

[LinaInverse]

Isis, I was using an exaggerated example to make a point: With that much Force, and that weak a will, if targets all know when they're being casted on, even that extreme case would not prevent the victim, even when his emotions are totally under someone else's control, from "choosing" not to obey his emotions and go by logic alone. If so, then this spell (and others along this vein) are all but useless.

Grinder, in 3rdEd (SR3, p162), the rule for noticing casting is a Perception Roll:
Tgt# = 4 + (Caster's Magic Rating) - (Force of spell being cast)

So someone who's casting a spell near his force has a decent chance to be noticed. Someone who has Initiated a few times can wizz that same level of Force spell out more casually and is far less likely to be noticed. Whether this applies to how/if/when a victim notices that he's been casted on is a different issue and not covered to the best of my knowledge.

[Striker]

Here's how I houserule it:

• If it's a combat spell, or another spell with obvious negative effects (like a detrimental Health spell), the target knows.
• If it's a Control Manipulation, whether or not the character notices anything depends on how many successes he rolled while resisting.
• If it's a 'mind reading' sort of spell, the victim only notices it if the spell fails.

[Kagetenshi]

But combat spells don't have obvious negative effects-- or at least not obviously magical. Serious Stun could easily be a splitting headache and extreme dizziness. A Serious Manabolt might feel like a heart attack or stroke. There's a reason that they mention at some point that some in-game mages call Stunbolt/ball spells "sleep" spells.

~J

[Striker]

Well, I worded that badly...what I meant is that the target feels that something happened. A sudden headache. A quick burst of vertigo. Something like that. It's up to them and their knowledge of magic -if they have any- to make something of that information.

[Kagetenshi]

That's true, though I could see Light Stun going unnoticed. Not frequently, but on occasion.

~J

[Jrayjoker]

Are we talking about just noticing the effects of spells, or the casting as well, 'cause there is a pretty clear section in SR3 for noticing casting.

I have to side with Striker on when the effects are noticed, though.

[RedmondLarry]

[Adarael]

I have a solution like Kagetenshi's. I use the 'noticing spellcasting' target numbers for 'noticing spells'. Since at some level, magical energy ought to be visible, in my opinion.

Which is totally a house rule, I realize, but hey.

[DocMortand]

*chuckle* I think I would probably side with OurTeam on this one...altho I know it's going to bite me in the butt.

So yes, Lina...those legion of spells you're going to be learning will be able to turn my NPCs inside out...assuming I don't resist the spell. :) And no, I'm not going to try to counter it, either. *grin*

Of course drones are immune to mind control spells...:vegm:

[Jrayjoker]

I think the noticing spellcasting is more about seeing the gestures and hearing any chants, formulae being used rather than seeing a nimbus of energy, unless the character is awakened, and then the TN is reduced because of familiarity and astral "intuneness". I think that if it is a control/detection/mana spell that gets through you anly notice the effects if it does damage. If my emotions are being manipulated I can't tell unless I have sucessfully resisted the magic.

[bitrunner]

OurTeam's viewpoint sounds reasonable...

i was also thinking that you could do something like in Champions (i play a mentalist...)

if you get a number of net successes that would defeat a Threshold of the resisting attribute (or half, if you want to make it like the Petrify spell), then the target is not only affected, but has no awareness that something was done to him, etc...possibly even give modifiers or remove the chance for the target to break free from mental manipulation, etc...

if you don't make the Threshold, the spell takes effect (as long as you still have at least one net success), but the target may later on remember that he did something not of his own will, or knew that he was being manipulated, etc...

that way, if you really cast the spell well, you can simulate just how much it affects the target...

thoughts??

[LinaInverse]

I am mainly talking about the effects being noticed or not. Noticing the casting is covered in the canon rules.

My gripe was that spells that are meant to be subtle seem to be defeated if it is automatically known that magic is casted on a person.

If the target successfully resists, that's one thing. I'm mainly focusing on when the target fails to resist. What good is it to successfully cast "Alter Memory" on a target if the target knows that he just got zapped by a spell? Or to cast "Control Emotions" when humans, as a rule, can choose to ignore their emotions and act logically because they know they just got zapped by a spell.

As for the target's knowledge of magic, I have little interest in the man-on-the-street. I'm talking about targets that most people will see on Shadowruns; ie, Corp-Trained Security Guards, Professional Soldiers, other Runners, etc, all of whom would be well-trained to know about magic and its effects. I have yet to ever see someone on a run that didn't "know" about Magic.

So far, a few people here all cite house rules. Are there any Canon rules on this, one way or another?

Edit: My GM has just found me out...err...I mean, chimed in his opinion :D , so I guess my issue of Canon vs House Rules is solved. I'd still be curious on whether there ever was a Canon ruling on this issue.

[DocMortand]

Hmm...sounds semi-complicated. But then again I've never played Champions. What would the Threshold be set at? And would it be different for different spells?

[LinaInverse]

Here's how Champions 4thEd did it (one of my favorite all-time systems):

The power was bought in 1d6 increments. So a middle-level mentalist might toss 8d6 Mind Control. A powerful one might toss 14d6, etc. Roll and add the results; the former would average 28, the latter would average 49. Compare it to the Ego of the target:
If =Ego: Target will do what he might have done
If =Ego+10: Target will do what he won't mind doing
If =Ego+20: Target will do what he would oppose doing
If =Ego+30: Target will do what he would violently oppose doing

In addition:
+10: Target will not remember doing his actions
+20: Target will believe actions were his own volition.

So, if your target had an Ego of 10 (avg Human), an Egoist would have to roll a 40 or better (Ego+30) to make him kill his family (or similar violently opposed action). If they rolled a 50+ (ie, Ego+30+10), they could make them not remember the action (though obviously video and witnesses might kibosh that). If they rolled a 60+ (Ego+30+20), they would believe it was their own idea.

[bitrunner]

basically, here's what i'm talking about...

If you cast Control Thoughts on someone, the TN is Willpower. If the person has a Willpower of 4, then the TN is 4, of course...in order for the spell to take effect, the mage has to get a number of net successes equal to half the target's Willpower, called the Threshold, so the mage would need 2 net successes for the spell to even take effect - not just one net success...this is per rules now...

what i'm saying is just use this as a base, and if you beat another 'threshold' of the target's attribute, rather than 1/2, then you cast the spell so well that the target has no idea he's being mentally controlled...

so, when the mage casts the spell, if he gets more than 4 net successes (2 more than he needed to succeed with the spell), the target would not know that he was ever under control - he would assume and rationalize to anyone that pointed out a difference in his behaviour that it was his own idea and of his own volition...

you could follow LinaInverse's example straight out of Champions and say that for every interval of net successes equal to the threshold of the target, that you bump up one level, so that if you get 12 or more successes (based on the example above), the target will do what he would violently oppose doing...or maybe you could make it so that the target has a harder time resisting or breaking out of the spell, maybe with a target modifier equal to how many thresholds above the required (in this example, +3)

not hard, just using the built in system of Threshold but extending it...

[Jrayjoker]

Why not just go back to 5M3, 7L2, 9S4 damage codes from SR1 then? I prefer the consistency (as much as there can be anyway) within the rules of the SR system as they stand.

[Kagetenshi]

Indeed. The threshold system seems like a kludge and takes the risk out of magic use in unbalanced cases. I prefer wondering if you should go with the Force 1 instead of the Force 3 to make it that much harder to detect.

~J

[hyzmarca]

[Jrayjoker]

With regard to "uncontrollable rage". Usually that is a result of frontal lobe damage. Perhaps the mechanic of the spell is then disengaging the frontal lobe for the purposes of the alteration, and then making the suggestion. If you don't notice the disengaging of your editor (lobe removal, resisted) you won't notice the suggestion (not necessarily resisted).

[mfb]

i'm not sure how the target would know what spell they're being hit with, either, unless they assense the spell as it's being cast. i suppose if you stood in front of the target and told them "i'm changing your memory", they might be able to recognize the false memory. they'd still remember it the way the spell told them to, they'd just know it's false.