Infusion/Adept Foci and Active Adept Powers? Options

[Mr.Sinister]

Which part clashes?

[mfb]

the older FAQ ruling states that purchased power points don't count towards the limit. in other words, if you've got 6 magic, and you buy a power point, you can have seven power points' worth of powers active. in the newer FAQ ruling, if you have 6 magic, and you buy a power point, you have to juggle which six power points' worth of powers you have active at one time.

[Mr.Sinister]

I'll have to look at the FAQ again, because I don't recall anything being an issue.

[Kanada Ten]

Um, it's in his quote of it.

"Any extra power points purchased with Karma do not count against the character's limit of (Magic attribute) number of power points."

[Fortune]

The quoted FAQ entry makes no mention of active Power Points. It merely covers the number of Power Points possessed by the character in relation to their Magic rating.

[mfb]

except that if you add the word "active" into the rules in SR3, then you have to add it into the older FAQ ruling as well, since that rule is what the older FAQ ruling refers to.

[Fortune]

Neither the question nor the response in the FAQ quote you provided have anything to do with the amount of active Power Points an Adept can have at any one time, but rather the amount of overall Power Points an Adept can possess in relation to his Magic rating. Two seperate issues.

[mfb]

the newer FAQ ruling modifies the text on page 168 of SR3. the older FAQ ruling annuls that same text in certain circumstances--the same circumstances that the newer FAQ ruling deals with (ie, what happens when your total power points exceeds your magic rating). these are exactly the same issue, answered in two different ways.

the basic issue is this: the new FAQ specifically says that power points purchased with karma count towards the limit on power points; the older FAQ specifically says that power points purchased with karma do not count towards that very same limit. both deal with the same sentence on page 168 of SR3, but each deal with it in a different--opposite--way.

[Fortune]

I don't see the problem.

Power Points purchased with the '20 Karma rule' are not limited to a character's Magic rating, but do count towards the limit of Power Points active at any given time.

I admit that two seperate FAQ entries would make it clearer though.

[mfb]

yeah, but that seriously hurts adepts, if you're in a BBB-only game. without that limit, adepts are on a roughly even footing with cybered combat characters; with it, adepts can't even begin to compete, beyond chargen.

besides, you're talking about a house rule. there's only one limit on power points--the limit mentioned on page 168. both FAQ rulings refer to that same limit, and modify it in seperate ways.

[Fortune]

A BBB-only Adept with a Magic of 6 could have 14 Points worth of Powers, but could only use 6 at any one time. I don't see this as being limiting in any major way.

To me it's just incentive to use the full Initiation rules.

[mfb]

you don't see that as limiting? he can only use half his powers at any given time; how is that not limiting?

[Fortune]

As far as I know, that has always been the case. Really, how many Powers do you think are necessary to have active at any one time? The Adept in question would be limited to having only 6 levels of Improved Ability (or any other level based Power) anyway, and it isn't likely he's going to need much more than 6 PP worth active at any one time.

As I said, it's incentive to use all the relevant rules for Adepts, instead of gimping them with only the inane '20 Karma rule'.

[mfb]

it wasn't the case until this newer FAQ ruling came out. as for not needing more than 6pp active at one time... well, honestly, that sounds like a pretty boring game, especially for an adept that has 14 total power points. then there's the matter of figuring out what type of action it takes for an adept to switch out active powers, and how many active powers he can switch with a single such action. and the deep, abiding joy involved in having to re-calculate your power point usage every few rounds.

[toturi]

Not necessarily. Choosing whichever adept power is active is not an action by Canon. Therefore you could have have Magic 3 and enjoy the benefits of Combat Sense 3 and Improved Reflexes 2. For most things you rarely require more than 1 power active, or more than 2-3 power points of abilities.

Slow... what Fortune said.

[mfb]

maybe it's just the GMs i play under--i doubt it, because i've played under a pretty wide array compared to people who play SR on tabletop--but i've never taken an adept on any run where he hasn't, at some point, required the use of at least half his powers. and it's an infrequent run where the adept doesn't require nearly all his powers--often more than 6pp worth--at some point.

[toturi]

How often have your PC needed all his adept powers at the same time? Improved Reflexes is needed when you calcualte initiative, but other then that you can drop it for the rest of the round and reactivate it when initiative time comes round again. Pain Resistance may need be active for long durations, but not many other powers I can think require you to have then active for such long durations.

[mfb]

dropping the IR power should drop your init score. IR allows you, on a constant basis, to perform actions more quickly; turning it off means that you can't perform actions as quickly, which means your init score should drop. besides which, IR also boosts your Rea, which keeps you from being surprised. surprise can occur at any time in combat; what's the use of being faster than eveyrone else, if a guy with six init can step out from behind a corner and catch you with your pants down?

and the number of powers which will probably be 'on' for long periods of time is not insignificant: astral perception, blind fighting, combat sense, enhanced perception, improved reflexes, improved sense, magic resistance, magic sense, magical power, mystic armor, pain resistance, rapid healing, sixth sense, spell shroud, temperature tolerance, traceless walk, and true sight.

[toturi]

No, it doesn't. Initiative is not recalculated in the middle of the turn. When you test for Surprise, turn it back on because you are not testing for anything else! So things like thermo, Killing Hands or Improved Abilities can be dropped. And because turning it back on is not an action, you can declare it is on for Surprise and off when you go back to your regularly scheduled programs.

You can turn Mystic Armour for soaking damage but turn it off for Killing Hands when hitting your opponent. In combat, once you use up the Combat Sense dice, you can drop it and declare it active the next time Combat Pool refreshes. Rapid Healing is only necessary when you roll the Body for healing. Similarly, sixth sense is only turned on for Surprise tests and dropped immediately after.

All this is possible because deciding which Adept powers are active is not an action. The only time I can think that you need a Magic 6 at one time is during Surprise and you want to use your Combat Sense, Improved Reflexes and Sixth Sense simultaneously.

[mfb]

losing the power that makes you faster in the middle of combat, but not losing the initiative boost, is just stupid. same with activating the fast healing power just long enough for the roll--healing is a time-intensive process; if the power that speeds up healing isn't active during the time you're trying to heal, it shouldn't work. i'm not going to bother arguing it on a rules basis--it's just retarded. anybody who allows it in their game deserves what the overpowered munchkins they're going to get.

besides, your argument makes the power point limit basically impotent--it will almost never come into play. why have it at all, if it has that little effect on game mechanics? all it does is clutter up the game with useless crap; you may as well just go ahead and say that all the adept's powers are always active.

[toturi]

I don't make the Canon rules. I just live with them. :)

[mfb]

but these aren't canon rules--or, at least, it's debatable whether or not they're canon. the two FAQ rulings conflict; power-switching is canon by one of the rulings, but not the other, and they're not compatible.

[Mr.Sinister]

I don't see where the issue is at this point. As ShadowFaq's suggestion of adding the word "active" is just a way to clarify some things. Let me try to explain using my adept.

Stats:
Magic 6 (6 power points = magic 6)
Improved Reflex:2 - 3 power points
Improved Quick:2 - 1 power point
Improved Body:2 - 1 power point
Suspended State:1 - 1 power point
(Total power points used: 6)

At this point, I have access to all of my powers because (1) the power points for each power does not have a rating higher than my magic rating, (2) the total number of power points does not exceed my magic rating, or magic rating plus points purchased via 20 karma each.

Now let's say I spend 20 karma to get 1 additional power point for Improved Ability(Assault Rifles):2 for the cost of 1 power point. My stats would now be:

Magic 6 (7 power points = magic 6 + 1 bought from karma)
Improved Reflex:2 - 3 power points
Improved Quick:2 - 1 power point
Improved Body:2 - 1 power point
Suspended State:1 - power 1 point
Imp. Assault Rifles:2 - 1 power point
(Total power points used: 7)

My character can still use all of his powers because of the two reasons above. Let's say that I take a deadly wound and lose a magic point, bringing it's rating down to 5. Because of this magic rating decrease, I have to lose 1 power point worth of abilities - and it's my choice. I decide to lose Suspended State:1 so my stats now look like this:

Magic 5 (6 power points = magic 5 + 1 bought from karma)
Improved Reflex:2 - 3 power points
Improved Quick:2 - 1 power point
Improved Body:2 - 1 power point
Imp. Assault Rifles:2 - 1 power point
(Total power points used: 6)

I can still use all of my powers because of the rules above. However, things have changed a little bit. Now, if I took a geas to offset the magic loss and the loss of Suspended State, I would have to satisfy my geas before I had the Suspended State power active and usable. My stats would now look like this:

Magic 5/6 (6 power points = magic 5 + 1 bought from karma)/(7 power points = magic 5 + 1 bought from karma + 1 from satisfied geas)
Improved Reflex:2 - 3 power points
Improved Quick:2 - 1 power point
Improved Body:2 - 1 power point
Suspended State:1 - power 1 point (from satisfied geas)
Imp. Assault Rifles:2 - 1 power point
(Total power points used: 7 = 5 from magic 5 + 1 from karma + 1 from satisfied geas)

If I then initiate to a grade 1, I'll choose to shed my geas. From this, I regain the magic point from the geas I just shed, allowing me to now have my Suspended State power available/active at all times again. Stats would now be:

Magic 6 (7 power points = magic 6 + 1 bought from karma)
Improved Reflex:2 - 3 power points
Improved Quick:2 - 1 power point
Improved Body:2 - 1 power point
Suspended State:1 - power 1 point
Imp. Assault Rifles:2 - 1 power point
(Total power points used: 7)

If I obtain an Adept Focus with a force of 2, when activated, it increases my magic rating by 2 only for additional powers, that I don't already know, that were obtained by an Infusion Focus. I then get an Infusion Focus for Improved Strength:4 which costs 2 power points. Since Infusion Foci need to be 2x the power point rating it's being bonded to, my Infusion Focus needs to have a force of 4. I won't be able to use the Improved Strength:4 power until I activate the Adept and Infusion foci I just got. When I do activate them, the Improved Strength:4 power would now be active and my stats would be:

Magic 6/8 (7 power points = magic 6 + 1 bought from karma)/(8 power points = magic 6 + 1 bought from karma + 2 from activated Adept Focus)
Improved Reflex:2 - 3 power points
Improved Quick:2 - 1 power point
Improved Body:2 - 1 power point
Suspended State:1 - power 1 point
Imp. Assault Rifles:2 - 1 power point
Improved Strength:4 - 2 power points (from activated Adept Focus + Infusion Focus)
(Total power points used: 7/9 = magic 6 + 1 bought from karma / magic 6 + 1 bought from karma + 2 from active Adept Focus)

Does that help explain the powers and the use of the word "active"?

[mfb]

that's not how the new FAQ answer works, though. for instance, in the second part of your example (when you have 6 magic and 7 power points), you would--according to the new FAQ ruling--be limited to having only 6 of those power points active at any given time. to use IA:Rifles, you'll have to deactivate 1pp worth of your old powers. this much is made clear in the example the new FAQ gives.

i'm not sure why this is so unclear. to me, simple logic shows that the two FAQ answers are incompatible. the old FAQ answer states that power points bught with karma don't count towards the limit on powers. the new FAQ answer says that they do; the inclusion of the word "active" is irrelevant, because if you put the word "active" in there, it applies equally to the old FAQ ruling. both FAQ rulings modifiy the third and fourth sentences of the second paragraph under "Adept Powers" on page 168 of SR3. each FAQ ruling modifies the text in diametrically opposed ways--the older FAQ ruling says one thing, and the newer FAQ ruling says the exact opposite of that.

[Mr.Sinister]