 Magic Unchecked |
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 Jan 18 2005, 01:50 PM
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#26
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Midnight Toker  Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456  |
But, space isn't as fun. :D
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Jan 18 2005, 02:08 PM
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#27
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Tx USA Member No.: 6,996 |
My mage actually did most of his killing with a polearm weapon focus bonded at 1 karma per rating or an old rusty AK-98 and HE grenades. If we ran into a tank or other hardened target then I'd just have one of my elementals manifest inside the vehicle and rip up the driver. Later on the GM started layering all the internal compartments of armored vehicles with fiber panels which was actually a pretty effective tactic for a bit. Amazingly enough, the majority of his spellcasting was ritual sorcery during downtime. I seriously think the karma reduction rules for creating your own foci is pretty retarded. I could understand lowering the karma cost of [rating x 7] focues down to a [rating x 6], but 1 karma per rating seems highly overpowered to me. I actually made a rating 20 power focus that cost 20 karma to bond over a period of months as a side project... I never had the guts to bond it though. :oops:
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Jan 18 2005, 02:10 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 230 Joined: 3-December 04 Member No.: 6,863 |
DUDE!!!
You need to come to our game to show the PC's how to live |
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Jan 18 2005, 05:55 PM
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#29
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
I think we may be getting wires crossed here. I'm suggesting that as the sort of ambush that would challenge your mage, not as a team that is doing a run against some corp (unless your team happens to be a corp security squad). You get set up by one of your enemies, and if you are set up well, you should be caught with your pants down. And you can't see through one-way windows on astral any more than you can on the physical. The only place that you could see the circle would be if you were already inside the building on the appropriate floor. |
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Jan 18 2005, 06:03 PM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
ES, too bad that sniper rounds have a tendacy to break any windows in the way. Giving people LOS back into the room.
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Jan 18 2005, 07:27 PM
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#31
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Tx USA Member No.: 6,996 |
Yeah, my bad ES. You're right, I was looking at it from the opposite perspective. :oops:
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Jan 18 2005, 10:45 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
Line of sight won't be established until after the ambush has been sprung, which is good from a GMing perspective. It changes the situation from just a sniper (which is no fun since it is basically "Make a perception test. You fail. Resist #D++") into a confrontation where the PC's are pinned down and have to use their wits to survive. |
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Jan 18 2005, 11:05 PM
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#33
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Tx USA Member No.: 6,996 |
You'd prolly also want to use some spell pool to shield a couple of the sniper's bullets to keep any anchored sense bullets/slay bullets combos from cooking the payload before they reach the target.
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Jan 18 2005, 11:07 PM
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#34
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Most of my players are rapidly approaching this and although the mages does throw some nasty spells around, he's not too overpowered, atleast game balance isn't really an issue.
To be blunt, I haven't a clue how genereous your GM is with cash or karma (or elemental rolls) but it smells fishy to me. Rating 14 eh validly eh? For some reason I doubt it. Plus the amount of karma bonded to a focus isn't as important as the rating, and then there is the whole issue of focus addiction and the fact elemental services expire as time progresses. Looking at the examples you have given, I'd guess alot of it could be solved by the GM re-evaluating his awards and expectations. Mages do excel as far as raw power goes with alot of Karma compared to their mudane counterparts, since they are only as good as their gear which has limitations. But that's where the GM will need to be extra-creative since the margin for error is more than likey in your favor. Putting your group in situations that can't be easily solved by magical means in one way. No matter how bad-ass you might be, there should always be someone (or something" nastier lurking in a dark shadow.
I don't like the idea of removing game elements because they have been abused (that's my guess for this situation). He can always make them cost double-karma, harder to find or honestly, re-evaluate how he is assigning karma rewards, but even then I don't see initiation as the problem. Yes mages can be a problem if left unchecked as you've pointed out. |
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Jan 18 2005, 11:42 PM
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#35
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm the GM in question, at least for the current game. :) Initiation is currently unavailible for two reasons. The first is game balance, initiation is very powerful and we're starting with just the core book. The second is that nobody has ever heard of initiation because we're starting with justt he core book. So far I've decided it will be removed. But later, if it becomes an option through story reasons, it will be allowed. But it won't just be "I spend some a tiny bit of karma and make some rolls, me and the physad are now initiate grade in our own group." But I have plenty of time to decide on that. There's only been 1/2 a run and the only character with any karma has one point because he made us laugh. From what I know of the examples ShortBusFury is talking about, the GMs at the time ran printed adventures. There are some huge money and karma payoffs in those books, as well as some incredibly juicy gear to be taken off the fallen. It isn't really a matter of rethinking karma and money rewards as it is stepping away from the printed adventures. Some people don't have the creativity to do that, and others just don't have the time. |
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Jan 19 2005, 01:05 AM
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#36
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
I still don't agree with the game balance issue, but just using the core rules to temper things is probably a great idea.
So all the printed SR modules generate over 230+ karma? Seems like an awful lot of reward still and there are plenty of other mechanics to consider as I am sure you know. I dunno how many printed adventures there are, but even if there where 20-30, that's close to 11-8 Karma per gig which isn't too bad, but given the non-linear progression from one module to the next with respect to the karma level of the players, I am sure alot of those where free-rides unless the GM took the time to modify them, but that sounds less plausible in this case. Sorry for the skepticism here, some of this just rubs me the wrong way, nothing personal. |
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Jan 19 2005, 01:19 AM
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#37
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Nothing personal taken. I only know those game sessions from the stories I hear. I do know that there are a crapload of modules published, and the two Harlequin megamodules are worth a monstrous amount of karma.
We disagree on the game balance of initiation, but that's cool. To each his own, and I do plan to allow initiation eventually, I just don't want characters to start with it, or to even be able to get it cheaply and easily. The same holds true for several other aspects of the game (bioware, advanced cybertechnology, etc.). They aren't incredibly unbalanced if handled properly, but I don't want people starting with them. You have to have something to aspire to or what's the point of playing? |
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Jan 19 2005, 01:45 AM
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#38
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I never allow characters to start initiated. NEVER.
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Jan 19 2005, 02:29 AM
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#39
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
There are at least 38 seperate official releases with scenarios in them. Some of them, like Missions, Predator and Prey, Brainscan, and the like, have 4 or more different scenarios included.
This does not include core books or books in the Threats/SotA/Target/Shadows of (except Shadows of the Underworld) series'. |
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Jan 19 2005, 02:38 AM
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#40
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Jeez, you can get 70+ just from harlequin's back alone, not even counting the original harlequin.
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Jan 19 2005, 02:54 AM
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#41
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Tx USA Member No.: 6,996 |
We actually averaged a rough 4 karma per adventure for non-published materials. The average published materials gave out way much more than suggested in the mainbook. Go add all the karma in Eye Witness if you think I'm kidding. BitBasher isn't lying about Harlequin. It's a book of 7 adventures that average out to around somewhere 10-12 karma for running through the whole book. No offense Grinder, but from your statement about doubting a TN#14 I take it that you have either never ran in a high-karma gaming session or you have have yet to play with any powergamers. Seriously, no offense is intended and I am not trying to defame you character. In order to understand why a TN#14 is not a problem you have to realize how powerful karma rerolls are in downtime situations. I'll give you an example with very simplified mathematical descriptions included: 1. You have a mage with a karma record of 200+ 2. You have spent a measley 50 of that karma, roughly 20% of that on conjuring abilities, giving you a rating 12 in the specialization of summoning. 3. Since your karma record is 200+, that sets your karma pool at 21 (assuming you haven't done something stupid and wasted any of it). 4. You have a a rating 7 spirit foci bonded at 1 karma per rating. 5. You have a current magically-boosted charisma of 10 so any spirit up to a rating 15 only inflicts serious drain. 6. You have a your runners nearby ready with melee weapons and a pre-summoned contingent of watchers on the slim chance you fail to bind what you are about to summon. They help out because you have saved their asses so many times and they also know that you only want the power to make sure runs go according to plan and get *EVERYBODY* more money and karma. 7. For ease of calculation we decide to summon a rating 13 elemental. Here's the dice you roll: 12 (your skill) + 7 (your foci) with total number of 6 karma rerolls (1 + 2 + 3 + 4 + 5 + 6 = 21 total rerolls for a 24 hour period) 8. Result: assuming on the off-chance that absolutely no dice have succesffuly hit TN#13 (same as TN#12) then you have just rolled 114 dice. If you know your math, then that means you only have roughly a 15% chance of failure with that many dice (again, simplifying math and rounding to keep things simple) and on average you will have 3 successes against a TN#13 which gives you quite a nifty number of services indebted to you by a pretty hefty lil' spirit dude for the measily cost of 13,000¥ *IF* you actually paid for the ritual materials to summon the lil' stinker. No need to worry about drain because you only took a serious wound and are standing regardles of the damage done so your spirit is fully controlled. The physical damage from the drain is gonna' be gone in a bit with ritual healing anyway. Again Grinder, I mean no offense when I say this, but your statements strike me as lacking in personal experience. This is just ONE of many unbalanced things you can do to maintain your own personal army on call as a mage and I assure you that by no means have I exaggerated the TN#s I have previously given in this thread. |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:07 AM
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#42
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
You could add the benefits from a Power Focus to that as well. ;)
Of course, you need a seperate Spirit Focus for each type of Spirit or Elemental summoned. |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:10 AM
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#43
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I can't image this. Playing a character to 1000+ karma? Yow-za!
But I have a simple solution that has worked for us in the past (when I actually played IRL): GM: Okay, new campaign! Everyone make new characters! Us: YEAH!! New characters!! We all had our "favorite" characters, of course so we'd occasionally have "Reunion Runs" or similar but we liked the change. You averaged 4 karma per run and you made to 200+? That's what, 50 runs? You managed to keep the same character alive for 50 runs!?! Your GM must pretty damn nice. :) Back to 50ish runs...so figure you can polish off a module in four (we usually took 3-6 depending...) meetings. Assuming you met 2 a week (we barely made once a week). That's still about 2 solid years of playing the same character. Its actually almost impressive, now that I think about. This post has been edited by kevyn668: Jan 19 2005, 03:11 AM |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:15 AM
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#44
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
You forgot to factor in a Rating 13 Conjuring Library and Rating 13 Hermetic Circle. :nuyen: 169K Conjuring Library. If you are using an non-permanent Rating 13 circle, you need 13 hours to draw it up. If you are doing it in a permanent circle, you would have invested in another :nuyen: 169K and 13 days.
Keeping your pals awake for 13 hours doing nothing but sitting around your circle is a real pain in the ass. BTW, did you remember to initiate? Don't forget to initiate. |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:16 AM
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#45
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Tx USA Member No.: 6,996 |
Keen eye, Fortune. That's actually the reason I had spirit foci. In hindsight I should have used a power focus in the example. But shhhhh! Simple... baby steps for em' bro! :grinbig: |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:20 AM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Tx USA Member No.: 6,996 |
You guys *REALLY* have a problem with the word simple dont'cha? I'm not gonna' sit here and describe how you can mage-cheese without any money. Go look at another thread. :D Seriously, I started this thread looking for input from others that have already been there as I am looking to avoid this kinda' thing in the endgame with my new gaming crew. I'm looking for advice, not a rule-lawyer debate. |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:36 AM
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#47
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Umm...
Seriously, at that power level, there have only been a few valid suggestions. Make the player's primary theater of operation space or send equally uber magicians after the PC mage. Since you so simply defeated the the corp sniper trio, I guess the only other thing to do is send 40 or so spirits (perferably watchers) after your man while he's astral. Use the friends in melee rules to full extent. At that power level you're going to have to get pretty creative if you just want to make it challenging vs. geeking him. Try putting the mage in situations where he can't use his magic to its fullest extent. Even if his foci can stand up to most wards doesn't mean that he'd not want to avoid setting off the alarms. Put him in social situations with the same criteria. Throw some FAB III at him. Have Chantrell take an interest in him. Go ask Herald for stats on Horrors. That should pretty much ruin his day. I don't know what you want to hear to be honest with you. Your character was (is?) a God amongst men. Good job. Look, I really don't mean to be rude so don't take that way but characters that have reached that power level are going to need a similarly obscene level of power thrown at them for it to be any challenge. My advice: retire 'em. Start over. |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:49 AM
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#48
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Start a rock band, syndicate or s-corp. Found a school, church or metaplane. Seriously, stop shadowrunning.
Otherwise, simply don't cheese when there be no need. |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:53 AM
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#49
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Just to clarify, this wasn't a thread for SBF to brag about his character. Trust me, I've heard him brag about his characters, and this wasn't it. :D
The group is fairly new to 3rd edition, and I've already seen a few things I really like. I just noticed last night that cover modifiers apply to spells now, even non-elemental ones. That will help a lot, since getting around your enemy's cover usually means not being in cover yourself. |
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Jan 19 2005, 03:54 AM
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#50
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Target Group: Members Posts: 49 Joined: 17-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Tx USA Member No.: 6,996 |
Aye, actually, you want powergaming, go look at James' epic D&D dueling forums. :eek: Really I was looking at keeping magic in check for other players. Not "Your character is too powerfull, you retire him, make a new character, and everyone else gets to keep playing because they're not too powerful". I'm not even playing a mage this time around. I actually stopped powergaming about 8 years or so ago. The way I see it, if you want to win something you *WILL* win if you focus on it hard enough. Winning got old... I want fun. ^_^ The best ideas so far have been storyline related... I like those the best so far to keep the characters in check without punishing them for the natural urge to powergame. You don't beat a dog because he's a dog. ;)
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