 Magic Unchecked |
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 Jan 20 2005, 10:16 PM
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#76
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Great Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957  |
A corp that routinely uses astral scouting through private property is eventually going to get discovered, unmasked, and take a serious PR beating. Also, once the heavier hitters in the area (runner teams, rival corps, organized crime) find out about it, they'll be doing everything they can to shut that corp down or destroy its local presence. People like that don't want you in their backyard, and they'll go to any lengths to ensure it doesn't happen. Or you could always just erect a rating 6 ward around the place. Sure its somewhat easy to punch through, but you can't see through it and if you do start to hit it, you're sending out a serious beacon saying "I am here. I am attacking you. Please come and kick my butt." |
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Jan 20 2005, 10:20 PM
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#77
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
My group plays a 2nd edition game where all the characters are getting close to about 200 karma. Boy, do we ever have problems with magic overpowering the mundanes. As a GM, my big problem is with the spells that imitate the effects that street sams use cyberware to produce. Nobody has any incentive to pay 5 essence for Wired 3 when they can get the shaman to use Increase Initiative on them. They don't get the reaction bonus that the wired reflexes give, but a) that's a small price to pay to keep 5 essence and b) it's still about as good as Wired 2. Basically, with the proper spells, the only useful cyber is matrixware and possibly a VCR. If I ever start up another SR campaign as the GM, I think I'm going to make the following drastic changes, both of which I already know will earn me hatred on these forums:
1) Disallow player character magicians. I like playing campaigns that go a long time, and I hate having one character be incredibly more powerful than the others. 2) Have cyberware available that makes characters immune to certain spells, or invisible to astral perception, or similar effects. Mundanes shouldn't have to rely on magicians for protection from other magicians, just like magicians don't have to rely on mundanes for anything. In fact, I should try to implement this in the game I'm currently playing. I'd also have technological devices that mimicked just about every spell or metamagical technique I can think of that isn't already mimicking the effect of a technological device. Such as electronic ward generators and something that allows one to travel to the metaplanes without needing a magician to hold one's hand. |
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Jan 20 2005, 10:52 PM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Yay for throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Jan 20 2005, 11:07 PM
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#79
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Guests |
It's not hatred--it's the lack of an understanding and explanation as to how the cyber works.
Your game. Your players' problem. |
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Jan 20 2005, 11:49 PM
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#80
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
I'm not dodging their point at all. I'm just not assuming that Lone Star is going to observe the law and not "illegally enter private property" (which is what I said). Is the assumption that this is astral investigation exclusively? If that is the case, then there might be a point. However, Lone Star can and does take their agents out into the field. Breaking into a warehouse, or wherever this Force 14 mega circle is located at, and perceive astrally as well. Considering the length of time this would take, the chances of being discovered (unless all of one's bases are covered) are increased. I suppose I'm also assuming that there is the issue of shadowtalk and rumormill in this game, which is the lifeblood of the legwork section of a run. This, IMO, works against the runners as well. I don't think this type of information (as in the routine summoning of gargantuan elementals) could be kept hermetically sealed from prying eyes and ears. All information has a price in SR. Just an opinion though. :) |
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Jan 21 2005, 12:16 AM
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#81
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
I must have been truly blessed. I played with the same roleplaying group for some twelve years, and we used to play a lot of SR (1st and 2nd ed). Our prime characters had racked up some 250 karma apiece.
And yet, we suffered none of the unbalanced overpowered stuff you lot talk about. Our primo mage was a Grade 5 Initiate - but he had a bunch of other skills as well. One of the hardest characters in the game had a synaptic accelerator and a spell barrier focus - that was it. Nobody felt eclipsed by anyone else, nobody was grimly overpowered compared to anyone else (or if they were, it never noticed), and we sure as hell didn't have rating 14 elementals knocking about. So I venture the opinion that it's not the rules that are the problem, nor even the characters - it's the players. |
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Jan 21 2005, 12:21 AM
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#82
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
I'm not positive, but, in SR3, I think that whenever an Elemental is sent on a service outside (such as inside a tank or building) of the Conjuror's Line of Sight it is considered a "Remote Service" meaning that all other services are void, and the spirit departs once this service is complete.
I also rule that there must be enough "space" for the spirit to Materialize where ever that takes place. |
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Jan 21 2005, 12:44 AM
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#83
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
So what you're saying is that the Star likes to go into random warehouses just for the fun of it? A megacorp doesn't do anything that doesn't have a payoff, and random warehouse searches costs a lot more than it could ever make.
A group that has earned 300+ karma doesn't have the kind of contacts that let their doings slip. You don't survive that long if that happens. |
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Jan 21 2005, 01:01 AM
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#84
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Of course not. That would be pretty ridiculous. However, that level of mojo is going to generate curiousity on some level, otherwise the players are getting off way too easy. Summoning Force 14 anything routinely is going to draw unwanted attention. The Star is but one element that might pry in on said summoning if they had a detective that was investigating where all of these legendary size forces were coming from. C'mon, you mean to tell me that there isn't going to be heat on the mage runner who keeps using these huge ass elementals on his runs? That draws all kinds of attention in not only the shadows, but within law enforcement, not to mention corp data on who-did-what. Connect the dots... runner keeps using big elementals + Lone Star investigates criminal activity + this becomes an M.O. after a while = Heat. Is Lone Star going to obtain search warrants to snoop inside a building? Maybe. I don't like to think of the Shadowrun universe as a universe of complete order. Yeah, it might happen. But its also likely that you'll get some hard ass detective on your case who's tired of some mage giving him a bad name. I think its odd that you think its outside the realm of possiblity that someone might chance upon, let alone actively hunting, for said conjurer. And the thing about a 300+ karma group having air-tight contacts... I guess, if that's how you run the game. Everyone would have to be level 3 with level 3 contacts that they deal with in turn. The simple fact is that there's always a link in the chain somewhere. Its how runners exploit the NPC's they're doing legwork on. The same should apply to the runners themselves. That is shadowrun. Air tight contacts is a pipe dream. Everything has a price in Shadowrun. Edit: Let me say that I'm not trashing the way you run your game. I'm just saying that it isn't outside the realm of possibility that this type of stuff be uncovered in some manner, especially from astral investigation. |
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Jan 21 2005, 01:13 AM
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#85
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Game mechanically, the Wrong Party tests can be applied to people enquiring about the runners too. And unless the people looking for the runners have level 3 contacts with level 3 contacts in turn, word will get back to the runners that someone is looking for them.
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Jan 21 2005, 01:16 AM
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#86
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
And that's but one way they can draw heat. There is a plethora of other more insidious and very plausible methods. 300+ karma isn't the point that run completion is a given.
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Jan 21 2005, 01:19 AM
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#87
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,754 Joined: 9-July 04 From: Modesto, CA Member No.: 6,465 |
Well said. |
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Jan 21 2005, 01:30 AM
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#88
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Target Group: Members Posts: 41 Joined: 13-February 03 From: Ottawa, ON, canada Member No.: 4,088 |
I think the first potential slip among contacts would be the talismonger.
is that where are you getting these summoning supplies? (unless you go out in nature and get them yourself...which would probably require an INSANE amount of time and skill/luck considering you need force 12 or 14 supplies) or what if you dont know any talismonger who has that serious of mojo? you may have to start asking around... "you want force WHAT conjuring supplies?!" (of course those people you ask are gonna remember you) And lets say your talismonger can get you the stuff...where does he get it? It may draw attention from his/her supplier... "why do you want these high rating goods? what megacorp or military organization are you hooking up anyway? I thought you were just dealing low end wares to runners...Who is this going to, exactly" BAM! You're sold out... but you wont know. Talismonger gets back to you, saying hes got your sh*t. Meanwhile, someones waiting for you to use them. hell, the supplies themselves may even be astrally tracked. |
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Jan 21 2005, 01:54 AM
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#89
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Target Group: Members Posts: 36 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,691 |
Yes. The Star likes to go into random warehouses where large quantities of smoke are seen (for both Fire and Air elementals). This isn't to mention the need for large quantities of ritual materials (the corebook, at least, gives no estimate as to how much volume is needed, so I don't know how much space 14k of fire elemental stuff takes up) and the aforementioned "if just one of your teammates is followed" problem. Since you will be having backup there in case you lose control of it, yes? Not saying that a big, boarded-up warehouse isn't the *best* place for this sort of thing, just that it's not like you're creating a pocket realm that no one else can see into. Unless you paint it pink and put up an SEP field spell. -Albert |
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Jan 21 2005, 02:06 AM
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#90
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I think it is important that you all read Mensche's post. He makes one of the best points thus far.
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Jan 21 2005, 02:24 AM
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#91
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
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Jan 21 2005, 02:26 AM
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#92
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Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 |
Yes, but game mechanically, it will be:
"You want enough ritual material to summon an elemental that can take on an army regiment?" "Yeah, you heard me right." "OK. Come back, Avail weeks/days/hours and I'll have it ready for you." And "Say chummer, you got enough material for a Force 14 elemental?" "Yeah, I've got it. But it is tough to get stuff like that but since you are my blood brother (Level 3 Contact) I'll keep it quiet for you." And this is not precluding the fact that the mage/shaman could simply get the stuff himself during downtime. Or "Ma! Do you know where is the stockpile of ritual material that Grandma kept?" "Yeah, the Force 14 Air elemental stuff is gathering dust in Level 12, the rest of the Force 14s are in Level 13 of the missle silo Grandpa bought, dear." |
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Jan 21 2005, 02:27 AM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 210 Joined: 8-October 04 Member No.: 6,736 |
Summoning supplies for a force 14 elemental are going to run you 14k, but the circle itself only costs rating squred nuyen for a non permanent circle (times 100 if you want a permanent one). I recommend using temporary ones unless you plan on conjuring more than 100 force 14 elementals of the same type in the same location. |
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Jan 21 2005, 02:31 AM
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#94
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Why wouldn't you use to summon 100s? All of your contacts are level 3 so they won't tell anyone and the cops don't notice stuff like that anyway... |
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Jan 21 2005, 03:01 AM
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#95
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Don't worry, you won't upset me. It's not the way I run the game, its the way the character in question's game was run. :)
I tend to think that a level 3 contact is of high enough quality that it doesn't matter what his contacts are. Even if they sell him out, he won't sell you out. I also think that its possible for someone to spend their own time getting summoning supplies. Remember, you don't ask "can I get enough to summon a force 14 elemental" you ask "can I get enough to summon 14 force 1 elementals". I could be wrong, but I doubt that's going to set off any alarms. ~200 :nuyen: worth of hermetic circle materials also won't set off any alarms either. Or do you send the Star looking for mages that want to summon 6 force 6 elementals with the flexibility of doing them all at different locations? This isn't "serious mojo" we're talking about here. It's less materials than someone wanting to summon 6 force 6 elementals would require. Sure, there's going to be smoke if you summon earth or fire, but there are plenty of ways to get around that, the easiest of which is to just summon earth and water. But if you really want flight or fire, get yourself a building in the sticks somewhere, that nobody cares if they're sending up smoke. Hell, if its a factory they would get more suspicious if it didn't send up smoke. I'm not saying I would make such a thing easy in my game, and I doubt we'll ever reach that point. But if we do, I'll find more logical reasons to make things difficult than "you bought a little bit of chalk and lit a few fires, the megacorps and the Star are looking for you." And as the original poster said, those elementals were never used unless needed. Doing something every 4-5 runs (if that often) does not constitute an M.O. |
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Jan 21 2005, 03:04 AM
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#96
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Really? Is there a quote to that effect? Ie, that one can simply combine two Summoning Materials and add the Force? Seems odd since nothing else works like that to my knowledge. |
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Jan 21 2005, 03:14 AM
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#97
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I'd think force 14 materials would have to be higher quality, not just 14 sets of scrub materials.
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Jan 21 2005, 03:17 AM
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#98
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Well, that's a liberal interpretation of what a level 3 contact means. They do get a bonus to resisting answering questions about the runner that they have the wookie bond with, but other than that they can still flub up in their own dealings with their contacts. And there is nothing to say that level 3 contacts automatically have level 3 contacts that they deal with. It just means that they're friends for life. Anyhow, the point was that there is always a link in the chain at some point. It is that link that can be exploited by smartypant bad guys. ;)
Detectives could establish an M.O. pretty quickly. How many crime scenes would you need to work before noticing that Force 14 elementals were being used more than once? Point here being that it wouldn't take very long for a savvy LS detective to put the pieces together. And toturi, I get the feeling your gaming group is composed of all lawyers. :D |
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Jan 21 2005, 03:17 AM
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#99
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
On a side note: I found the sheet of that one mage we had problems challenging (the one who finally bit a tactical nuclear weapon). Luckily we made it mandatory to track acculated karma for record-keeping purposes.
1713 accumulated good karma. Yep, that's 6 years worth of thrice-a-weeks to once-a-months. edit: The guy's bio (he kept notes on the runs) reads like the memoirs of an immortal elf. Man, what great memories this brings back. I went through about 15 characters while this guy was still running :) |
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Jan 21 2005, 03:20 AM
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#100
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Oh man, that's unreal. Seriously, I've never heard of someone having that much accumulated karma. :eek:
That's cool though, as long as it was fun. I'm sure there's a cubic butt ton of stories to tell. |
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