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> Confused by magic, Unclear about spell Force
Dancer
post Jan 22 2005, 12:29 PM
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Obviously I am a complete doofus, because I've read the magic chapter through several times and can't grok how the Force of a spell affects many spells. Take Oxygenate as an example. The Duration of the spell is however long you maintain it, the effect is based on your Sorcery successes, and the only effects Force seems to have is to increase the difficulty of the drain resistance roll and make it harder to dispel. Unless you expect to run into a lot of people who spend time dispelling your spells (instead of just frying/shooting you), why would you ever cast this spell at anything but Force 1? Many bonus-providing spells (like Increase Reflexes) seem to be unaffected by Force.

With detection/combat spells, is the sole function of Force to boost the target of the resistance roll?
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toturi
post Jan 22 2005, 01:05 PM
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QUOTE (Dancer)
With detection/combat spells, is the sole function of Force to boost the target of the resistance roll?

Pretty much so. However, for detection spells, the range of the detection is also dependent on the Force of the spell.
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Dancer
post Jan 22 2005, 01:37 PM
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On the subject of magic (specifically Hermetic Libraries), pg287 lists memory as costing "20 :nuyen: /Mp", and Data Display Headsets take 'standard data cartridges' holding 1000Mp. Do 'data cartridges' cost more than a small car, or is there something screwy going on here?
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ShortBusFury
post Jan 22 2005, 01:47 PM
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Yeah, they're big and expensive. So yes, a big rating library is gonna' be in the 100,000+ range. You're basically taking the entire contents of one of those old lovecraftian libraries and cramming everything onto an itty-bitty chip... I'd say it would be worth it just for the 'Search' function.

COMMAND> FIND NECRONOMICON:SUMMONING/CALLING:"GOAT WITH A THOUSAND YOUNG":YOG-SOTHOTH

Wheee!!! :grinbig:
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Dancer
post Jan 22 2005, 01:53 PM
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Modern day, storage for a (very large) text document would cost maybe 10c. I could fit the entire Library of Congress on a stack of DVDs costing less than $50. Unless computer technology has gone way backward in the next sixty years, it should be possible to store a small library (Rating 5) for less than :nuyen: 50,000.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 22 2005, 01:54 PM
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Something screwy. You could/should probably use the Optical Memory Chip prices instead of Computer Memory prices -- but with an 11th or older printing book, that'd still mean 1000Mp costs 5,000 :nuyen: . OMC prices have been errata'd since the 12th printing.

The extremely high memory costs are related to the high Concealability, weight and price of cellphones and other electronic gear in that the numbers were decided on way back when and have not been revamped during the RL tech boom. Incidentally, weights and concealability ratings of many electronic items were changed for the 12th printing along with OMC prices.
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ShortBusFury
post Jan 22 2005, 01:59 PM
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I don't have a book with me, so don't take my word for it, but the increased cost may be due to the type and complexity of knowledge stored. Nobody wants to read through the library of congress so I'd guess that probably goes for around 5 for the whole thing... me, I'd rather buy a soy burger. I'm guessing could have been an attempt by the writers to add some sort of monetary game-balance to the rather inexpensive upkeep on a mage. If it *IS* supposed to be standard optical memory then it's definitely an error or something that wasn't caught by editing and I'd go with Austere's advice and use the Mp x 0.5 errata costs.
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Dancer
post Jan 22 2005, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator @ Jan 22 2005, 01:54 PM)
Something screwy. You could/should probably use the Optical Memory Chip prices instead of Computer Memory prices -- but with an 11th or older printing book, that'd still mean 1000Mp costs 5,000 :nuyen: . OMC prices have been errata'd since the 12th printing.

I see no changes to prices in that Errata, nor do I see any entry for 'Optical Memory Chips' on page 287 (Electronics).

Given the cost of libraries, storage (more than the library itself) and Foci, it seems like Mages really need to take their Priority B as Resources. They need it just as bad as the street sammies.

EDIT: Found OMCs lurking in the text on page 295, but still no errata.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 22 2005, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (http://srrpg.com/resources/errata_sr3.shtml)
p. 296: Skillsofts and Chips Table [12]
The price for optical memory chips should be Mp x 0.5, and the Concealability of the skillsoft jukebox was changed to 6.
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Ancient History
post Jan 22 2005, 02:18 PM
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Even if you have the nuyen for foci at the beginning of the game, you don't have the karma to bind 'em. By the same token, low-end libraries are cheap and portable while high-end libraries are not. Most mages make deals to browse through corporate and university Hermetic libraries for a fee.

Personally, I'd put your B priority down for skills, but that's me.
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ShortBusFury
post Jan 22 2005, 02:18 PM
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The OMC errata Austere is talking about is listed on the link he posted. It says the following:

QUOTE
p. 296: Skillsofts and Chips Table [12]
The price for optical memory chips should be Mp x 0.5, and the Concealability of the skillsoft jukebox was changed to 6.


It's probably not really what you're looking for, but it's at least a really good place to start for a comparison.
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Dancer
post Jan 22 2005, 02:36 PM
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QUOTE (ShortBusFury @ Jan 22 2005, 02:18 PM)
p. 296: Skillsofts and Chips Table [12]
The price for optical memory chips should be Mp x 0.5, and the Concealability of the skillsoft jukebox was changed to 6.

It's probably not really what you're looking for, but it's at least a really good place to start for a comparison.

Ah, thanks. 1250 :nuyen: to store a library is eminently payable. Solves that problem.
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Dancer
post Jan 22 2005, 03:10 PM
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If people don't mind me taking this thread in yet a third direction, what is the point of Manabolt?. Stunbolt is easier to cast and takes people down just as fast (still fall over at Deadly). Plus you can ask them questions later. If you want them dead just put a bullet in their now-unresisting head.
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psykotisk_overle...
post Jan 22 2005, 03:16 PM
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Manabolt is better than stunbolt if you need to kill people quickly with magic. Say, if you don't want him/her as a witness. Stunning them and dragging them along has its own set of risks, and stunning them before executing them takes another valuable seconds.
So it's to save time, basically.
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hobgoblin
post Jan 22 2005, 03:30 PM
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allso, remeber that rl software that the maker belives will be obscure or have a limited customer base often have very high costs (reinforceing that idea). the same is with this. there are about 1% magicaly active people on the planet, how big a part of that is hermatic magicans of some sort or other? and how many of those are going to need a high rating library rather then use the one available at the uni or corp department where they study or work? its all about economics (and game balance)...
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ShortBusFury
post Jan 22 2005, 04:26 PM
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I normally use stunbolt whenever possible since it's more drain efficient and often keeps you from getting as much heat put on you by corporate security once you've escaped since you left many of their people alive. Be aware that there are awakened critters out there that are immune to stun damage, so a manabolt spell can still be a good investment even for people who primarily use stun spells.
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Dancer
post Jan 22 2005, 10:51 PM
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QUOTE (hobgoblin)
allso, remeber that rl software that the maker belives will be obscure or have a limited customer base often have very high costs (reinforceing that idea). the same is with this. there are about 1% magicaly active people on the planet, how big a part of that is hermatic magicans of some sort or other? and how many of those are going to need a high rating library rather then use the one available at the uni or corp department where they study or work? its all about economics (and game balance)...

The cost of the data is (rating squared) x 1000 :nuyen: . The storage capacity required is (rating squared) x 100Mp. Storage should cost the same no matter what the data is that you are storing, to the computer it's just ones and zeroes after all.
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FrostyNSO
post Jan 23 2005, 01:04 AM
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I could be mistaken, but I swear I remember reading somewhere that:

The force of a spell also affects it in that with some spells, the force also dictates the maximum number of successes.
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Glyph
post Jan 23 2005, 01:24 AM
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Force affects most spells. There are only a few where the only difference that Force makes is in the difficulty of dispelling it (Increase Reflexes is the most infamous example of the latter).

As far as the Oxygenate spell, personally I think it should be limited by Force in the same way as the Prophylaxis spell is. In fact, it probably is, and they just didn't catch it. But even if you let a Force: 1 Oxygenate spell give you more than 1 die to add to Body tests, you still don't want to be underwater using a Force: 1, low-Drain spell to breathe underwater. In the unlikely even that you do encounter magical opposition, they can really mess you up by dispelling it.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Jan 23 2005, 01:27 AM
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Oxygenate works on a maximum number of targets equal to force. Not the most brutal force related restriction, but a potential benefit to higher force knowledge.
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toturi
post Jan 23 2005, 01:30 AM
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The Force limitation is only limited to certain spells, like Increase Attibute and Increase Reaction. Also please bear in mind that spells affecting inanimate objects needs to exceed half the Object Resistance.

Also having casting high Force spell makes it difficult for you to erase your astral signature.
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Dancer
post Jan 23 2005, 02:06 AM
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Check my numbers here:

Thomas is a fairly new mage, with Enchanting 6 and a Karma Pool of 1. He rents an Enchanting Shop for a lunar month for 2800 :nuyen: , and purchases 4 units of refined gold for 80,000 :nuyen: . He works at alchemy for a 28 day circulation - 6 dice at Target 4, rerolling failures once, averages 4 1/2 successes, for an output of 18 units of Gold Radicals. Said Radicals have a market value of 720,000 :nuyen: . Disposing of them won't be trivial, but given that he obtained them by entirely legal and above-board means he should be able to get a good fraction of market price in time. Say he gets 2/3rds market price - that works out to a little over 15,000 :nuyen: pure profit a day. With a little more experience (Enchanting 8, Karma Pool 3) he gets 24,000 :nuyen: a day.

Why would Thomas ever want to go running?
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kevyn668
post Jan 23 2005, 02:14 AM
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That's the question isn't it?
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Sabosect
post Jan 23 2005, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (Dancer)
Check my numbers here:

Thomas is a fairly new mage, with Enchanting 6 and a Karma Pool of 1. He rents an Enchanting Shop for a lunar month for 2800 :nuyen: , and purchases 4 units of refined gold for 80,000 :nuyen: . He works at alchemy for a 28 day circulation - 6 dice at Target 4, rerolling failures once, averages 4 1/2 successes, for an output of 18 units of Gold Radicals. Said Radicals have a market value of 720,000 :nuyen: . Disposing of them won't be trivial, but given that he obtained them by entirely legal and above-board means he should be able to get a good fraction of market price in time. Say he gets 2/3rds market price - that works out to a little over 15,000 :nuyen: pure profit a day. With a little more experience (Enchanting 8, Karma Pool 3) he gets 24,000 :nuyen: a day.

Why would Thomas ever want to go running?

Because magically-powerful groups don't like it when upstarts move in on their turf. Thomas comes home one day, finds a mysterious package, and the following week the city is filling in the crater to build a new apartment building where his shop was.
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kevyn668
post Jan 23 2005, 02:40 AM
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Ahh...That must be the "Awakened Teamsters 404." They're a rough bunch. :P

Seriously, what groups do you speak of??
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