Multiple Foci Options

[dead_as_elvis]

Just a quick question: can you have multiple foci of the same type bonded and activated at the same time? Say, for example, a F1 Centering Focus and a F3 Centering Focus (giving you 4 dice for centering)?

[Ancient History]

<shrug> Sure, I guess.

[mfb]

yes.

[toturi]

Just like you can use 2 of the same kind of weapon foci to give you their combined bonuses to your relevant combat skill. So as AH and mfb said, yes.

[waftalia]

i would have to dissagree and say no only the most powerfull foci would work,just as if you had a rating 10 jammer and a rating 8 jammer it wouldnt be a rating 18 jqmmer the highest rating would only be counted.as of weapon foci"s, having 2 force 4 katanas on you doesnt give u 8 extra dice ,maybe if somehow you were wielding them both at the same time you woud have 6 extra dice ie....cyber claw 2 handed fighting multiplier.i think it comes down to common sence on the gm's part ,will he let his game becoume overbalanced?also another example, you cant throw down an expendable 6 spell focus and a force 4 expendable spell focus and get 10 dice. only one foci at a time can be used in such a manner.granted the rules might not say exactly that but in the essence of gaming lets let things flucuate and not remain constant.

also another point on the weapon foci two daggers both force 6 ,wont give u twelve dice ,your still only attacking with one weapon at a time.even with normal daggers wielding two do you double the damage given?

[Tarantula]

Another thing to help waftalia's point. Why wouldn't everyone have multitudes of Force1 foci that add up to +10 or however much they wanted, rather than 1 big foci? The costs would be stupendously cheaper.

[mfb]

well, ten force 1 foci are much easier to disrupt, they're less likely to make it through wards, and they're more to keep track of. there's nothing in the rules that backs up what waftalia said. if a given GM wants to houserule it, okay, but by the rules, foci stack just fine.

[Tarantula]

The rules don't state that foci DO stack either. The rules don't have any input on the subject whatsoever. Its not they do, or don't. Its up to interrpretation.

I think that if they did stack, there is very little point to having a higher force foci than multiple lower ones. Its not like you won't notice if someone grabs it, and, the lower the force it is, the more legal it is.

[mfb]

the rules state that foci add dice to whatever. they don't say anything about not adding dice to whatever if you've already got another focus of the same type. the default assumption, therefore, is that they add dice to whatever in every situation, even situations where you're using two foci of the same type. saying that foci don't stack isn't an interpretation, it's adding rules; if you can say foci don't work when you stack them, i can say foci don't work when it's raining. both statements have an equal basis in the rules.

[Tarantula]

Alright, by that line of reasoning, you are correct.

[Ancient History]

Magicians with lots of little foci (from looting enemy magicians, say) tend to develop the 'typical' eccentric appearence of the wizard or fetish-bedecked shaman.

[mfb]

i'm always correct. just ask me!

and i agree with AH. a wizard with a necklace full of charms, wands falling out of his pockets, arcane texts on his PDA--these things are cool. low-end foci are a good way of adding flavor to a magical character.

[waftalia]

you all have very god points,the rules are not always complete and totally understandable a lot of rules could be understood 20 different ways by 10 different people ,its all up to the gm and his particular group.if you want mages in your group running around with 30 force 1 combat spell focuses go ahead.but lets remember its a game and rules should be fluid and changeable to balance themselves out. and anyway focuses dont work in the rain it says so in the book.

[hobgoblin]

and no matter if your useing many low level foci or one big one your still getting hit by focus addiction as that works on the combined rating of all active foci :P

hmm, and from the astral you would look like some sort of x-mas tree :silly:

[vagranttimelord]

I admit that, yes, the rules do not state anywhere that you cannot have multiple low force foci that all add up. However, in my opinion it only makes sense to limit how far that goes... Power foci have been houseruled, as it now seems, to only count the highest when determining drain but the total of the power foci all add to spell pool. Multiple sustaining is a no brainer... of course anyone would have multiple if they got their hands on them... to useful. Weapon foci I would say should not stack for game balance, but everything else seems reasonalbe, centering, anchoring, etc.

[Sren]

Isn't there a rule somewhere that states that you can only add dice from one focus to a particular magical action? So you could have two force 5 combat spell foci actice, but for any one spellcasting attempt, you could only use 5 extra dice, but you could use the 5 dice from the other focus if you had a second action that round, and wanted to cast another spell... at least thats how I remember it. Otherwise, there'd be little reason for anyone to buy a focus with a rating higher than one unless you were a criminal who needed to get past a ward... and it'd be just as illegal to carry four force one power foci as it is to carry a single force four power focus...

Also, I think for weapon foci, there's an additional rule in a sourcebook that states using two weapon foci in two-weapon fighting lets you add the full dice from your primary weapon and half the dice from your secondary weapon.

just my two cents.
S'Ren

[mfb]

i'd like to see a page number for that weapon focus rule. i don't recall seeing it anywhere.

[Glyph]

Let me clear up a few misconceptions that have shown up here regarding multiple low-Force foci.

First off, foci cost so much per rating point, so 10 Force: 1 foci would not be "stupendously cheaper" than one Force: 10 focus - the cost would be the same.

Secondly, no one is going to have 30 Force: 1 foci active at once. You can only have a number of foci active at once equal to your Intelligence. And even if you go for several higher-Force foci, there is still foci addiction to consider.

Thirdly, having so many foci would be more trouble than it's worth. They all take a simple action to activate, so you would either have to keep them all active (bad idea, especially given how easily wards and hostile spellcasters could take them out), or spend a number of combat rounds just getting "ready".

[CBrate]

That and the fact you light up like a christmas tree on the astral.

[Zeel De Mort]

I'm definately in the "yes" camp too.

Foci add extra dice, there's no reason not to let them stack - we let all other kinds of extra dice stack in our game. e.g. Enhanced Articulation and Reflex Recorders. Both provide "extra dice", and if you didn't let them stack there'd be no point in buying Reflex Recorders. So if you're letting those extra dice stack, why not the ones from foci too?

I mean you're at no advantage having six force 1 power foci compared with one force 6 so go ahead and do it if you want. As Glyph pointed out, the cost is per point of force, so there's no nuyen difference (please have a look at the rules in future before saying anything to the contrary and misleading people!).

In fact, having the six foci is decidedly worse since you need to pay the price of the actual physical object six times over (which may or may not be particularly costly), activate each focus individually - thus taking six times as long to get ready, it further limits the number of other foci you can have active, etc etc.

Understandably your character may acquire a force 3 power focus, bond it, and then later get a force 5 and bond that too. Perfectly fine and not too unwieldly having to activate one rather than two - it's only two simple actions rather than one I guess, and preferable to bonding a whole new force 8 focus. It's just that there's really very little advantage to engineering a character who has six force 1 foci of the same type - doesn't make much sense in character or for any kind of efficiency benefit. I guess you do benefit from the fact that they're legal, and maybe don't glow quite so brightly in the astral, but that's really about it.

So that's my take as far as power, spirit, centering foci and the like go.

Weapon foci are easy since you can only reasonably use two at once, unless they or you are particularly unusual. So say you have the typical ambidexterous physad, and this variety has a weapon focus katana and a weapon focus knife: Use one in each hand, and get the full benefit (i.e. all the bonus dice) of the first one and half the extra dice of the second - easy enough.


Also, for the 1,000,000th time, and I know this is harped on about a lot, but could we all try and remember the difference between the words focus and foci and use them appropriately? I'd like that! :)

[mfb]

glyph, the karma costs would actually be significantly cheaper. you can make a force 1 power focus and bond it for 1 karma; bond ten of them, and that's only 10 karma. a force 10 power focus would cost, minimum, high 50s to bond.

the time to activate is a good point, though. imagine you're moving through a corporate zero zone with all your foci deactivated so you don't set off any astral wards, and you get discovered by the hellhound patrol. activating ten force 1 power foci so you can manabolt them is going to take a serious chunk of time to accomplish.

[Dancer]

[Glyph]

I'm not that familiar with the enchanting rules - I was only thinking about char-gen when I compared the costs. If you can bond a low-Force focus cheaply if you make it, and you can't do something similar if you make a high-Force focus, then I suppose a number of lower-Force ones would be cost-effective. To me, though, the disadvantages still aren't worth it.


As far as weapon foci, they add to the appropriate combat skill, period. So someone with two Force: 6 weapon foci and a skill of 6 would have an effective skill of 18, giving him 27 dice, before Combat Pool, if he wielded two weapon foci using the Ambidexterity Edge and the two-weapon rules. Some might find that a bit unbalancing, but that's how the rules currently work. Even one Force: 6 weapon focus, with a normal weapon wielded in the off hand, will effectively add 9 dice to your attack.

[mfb]

you can do something similar when you make any focus. however, the karma cost reduction is direct subtraction, not division, so it's not nearly as useful at high forces. if you do something that reduces the cost of a force 1 focus by 5 karma, doing it for a force 10 focus will also reduce the cost by 5 karma.

the intelligence limit is also an excellent point that i'd completely forgotten about. go ahead, bond six force 1 power foci; you won't be able to bond anything else.

[RedmondLarry]