 The magic bullet? |
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 Jan 25 2005, 07:07 PM
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#51
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Target  Group: Members Posts: 24 Joined: 13-January 05 Member No.: 6,974  |
Just use the material they make stealth line out of, give the bullet an incendiary tip, and have a burnable packet of the catalyst used to beak down stealth line.
Or, use a laser-based weapon. |
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Jan 25 2005, 07:44 PM
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#52
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 108 Joined: 6-December 04 Member No.: 6,871 |
How about duel squirt guns. Each firing 1/2 of a binary explosive, similar to what was used in Die Hard 3.
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Jan 25 2005, 11:01 PM
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#53
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Awesome. :D |
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Jan 25 2005, 11:42 PM
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#54
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
I believe the gelatin they use in that Mythbusters episode I mentioned was not your everyday jiggly store-bought-fun-for-kids Jello. It was the kind of stuff they use to calibrate ballistic gelatin, only (IIRC) it was mixed to much higher ratio than 90/10.
No. Bullets don't explode that thoroughly for a reason. The components that actually cause a lot of the damage from the anti-personnel type of explosive bullets (if you can call them that) are the little sharp bits that go shooting off all over the place when the bullet fragments. If a bullet exploded into a powdery, "dust" kind of substance, there wouldn't be much there to actually maximize damage effects (in other words, there's no point in making a bullet like that explode chemically when the sheer force of impact would have that effect anyway). Some of those little bits that do the damage are going to make up the exterior of the bullet, which has to be hard enough to hold the bullet together and be stable in flight, yet be soft enough as not to wear the barrel's rifling at an unecessary rate. And in order to maximize explosive capacity (something you definitely have to do in a small arms round), part of the exterior of that bullet is going to have to touch rifling. Those parts are going to be identifiable, even when they're blown into bits. The only real limiting factor is how much time the investigators intend to spend on ballistic forensics. A non-jacketed, sintered frangible bullet (a bullet made of compressed, non-toxic powdered metals; like Delta, PMC Green, or Sinterfire) will break up rapidly on contact with the target. How much of that bullet would be identifiable, I'm not sure. I've never seen any forensics done on this kind of bullet as they're relatively new and mostly used for training purposes. At any rate, a mid-range shot to the head with a bullet like that would probably not make it very easy for the forensics crew to identify rifling marks. Short of that, just get rid of the gun afterwards. It pays to have contacts. Anyway, shooting is not a good idea if you're trying to be discreet of mysterious about the whole thing.
I guess that depends on what you mean by "significantly fragmenting". Those jerk-offs that sniped people around DC used a .223 to do the work, all of it done under a distance of 100 meters. As you and I know, .223 bullets tend to significantly fragment in flesh at that distance. Forensic ballisticians identified each bullet and tied all of them to the same rifle. If you can piece together chunks like these in ballistics gelatin, you can certainly find them in a body, especially after an x-ray. Even after maximum fragmentation, you can clearly see a piece of jacket with rifling marks on it. That's identifiable. Here's a site all about ballistic forensics for whoever is interested. There's some info on cold-pressed frangibles here as well. |
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Jan 25 2005, 11:47 PM
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#55
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,144 Joined: 22-September 04 Member No.: 6,690 |
Gel rounds aren't too unbelievable, because they're not supposed to achieve penetration. Therefore, you just need to get a 'gelatin' strong and dense enough to survive exciting the barrel intact, and then it just gives the target a big old kinetic smack. Deformation or even breakup on impact is even desirable to a certain extent, since it's supposed to be a nonlethal round.
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Jan 25 2005, 11:54 PM
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#56
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
Uh huh.
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Jan 26 2005, 12:05 AM
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#57
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Subsonic and discharging sabot? Wrapping the gel in fabric apparently works.
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Jan 26 2005, 12:12 AM
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#58
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
Not what I thought this thread would be about, but how's this for a magic bullet -
ELD-AR capsule gun with the capsules loaded (probably from a powered storage tank which fills the capsules moments before they are fed into the gun, you'll see why in a minute) with FAB-compound (hence needing to carry a storage tank - how else you gonna keep the FAB alive long enough. I'm not saying the guns would have a particularly fast rate of fire, mind). High speed dual natured globs. I don't care if the target is astral only - that has GOTTA hurt things like spirits. What immunity to normal weapons? Its a dual natured attack! Just an idea, while we were talking of magic bullets. I'm sure you'll take it apart, but that's fine since my players will no doubt start doing research to build the damn things soon and I could do without the aggro! Thought of this while contemplating FAB-coated nets, which would capture a mage's astral form (which has already been coated with the stuff as it flew through the free floating FAB security system in corridor section alpha and is now glowing nicely under the UV lighting so the sec-forces can shoot the net) and force it to the ground. If the floor is also flooded with FAB, then they can't press through the floor to escape but as they are insubstantial they also offer no resistance to the very solid mundane net which sinks through their astral form carrying the FAB with it and... one diced mage. Mmmm... |
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Jan 26 2005, 12:16 AM
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#59
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
If the astral form was so how trapped or tied to a physical presence, a FAB bullet would be engaged in Astral Combat and likely be destroyed since it has no Willpower. Dual natured nets? I'll take Manaball for 500, Bob. And, by canon, astral intersection is just Astral Combat.
This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Jan 26 2005, 12:20 AM |
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Jan 26 2005, 12:18 AM
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#60
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
raygun, was that actual agreement, or no? gel rounds as presented in SR sound basically plausible to me, but it's not like i've thoroughly explored the world of non-lethal firearm options.
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Jan 26 2005, 12:24 AM
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#61
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Less-lethal is a more appropriate term. |
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Jan 26 2005, 12:33 AM
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#62
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Mostly Harmless Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 937 Joined: 26-February 02 From: 44.662,-63.469 Member No.: 176 |
No, that was pretty much sarcasm. Out of perhaps a shotgun or "grenade" launcher a gel round might be useful. At short range. Out of a pistol or rifle, I don't believe something like a gel round would be feasible. The projectile would be too small to produce the intended effect. In pretty much any case, a taser would be a better idea. |
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Jan 26 2005, 12:56 AM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 251 Joined: 29-April 02 Member No.: 2,659 |
If you're so worried about the ballistic trace, why not use a conventional FMJ round, then walk over there with a bullet probe, extract the bullet and walk away with it?
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Jan 26 2005, 01:02 AM
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#64
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
'cos it's easier to just use a shotgun.
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Jan 26 2005, 01:36 AM
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#65
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Plus it has the added benefit of saving you from needing a second bullet to kill someone. Neat idea, but impractical. |
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Jan 26 2005, 02:01 AM
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#66
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
What do you mean impractical? Don't you have a gear budget the size of a small first-world nation's military spending?
~J |
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Jan 26 2005, 02:05 AM
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#67
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Beetle Eater Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 4,797 Joined: 3-June 02 From: Oblivion City Member No.: 2,826 |
Hey, don't go bringing cyberzombies into this.
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Jan 26 2005, 02:07 AM
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#68
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 6,298 |
Well, I do, but I have to use most of it to equip the small first-world nation's military that I run. |
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Jan 26 2005, 05:21 AM
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#69
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 109 Joined: 29-March 03 From: Tir Tarngiere Member No.: 4,353 |
Well, while I understand we're going for "realism" here. Generally, in my games (even though they're solo because there apparently isn't anyone in the Portland Metro Area running a Shadowrun game. :( ) I go for, "what works" based on whatever I'm using at the time for source material. So I'll probably be using the Ice bullet, expecially for the next run (Runners are hired to find an extremely old pair of dueling pistols known as the... wait for it... "Judas Pair").
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Jan 26 2005, 10:27 AM
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#70
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
I was thinking along the lines of what happens to the M193 behind the cannelure at close ranges. Although I shouldn't be surprised if they could do a ballistic trace on pieces that small, at least in the 2060s. As for the gel rounds, what's the highest density you can get for a gel to be used for something like this? Like Raygun, I just can't see a bullet made out of a gel that weighs something like 6-20 grains/0.4-1.3 grams (ARs through HPs) being very effective. |
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Jan 26 2005, 06:45 PM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
On one Mythbusters show they proved that a falling Icicle could maim or kill a person.
Making an ice bullet that is fired from a Compressed Air gun would work, but it would have very short range, and the ice bullet would likely have to be much larger than a regular bullet, and shaped to have a sharp point on it, unlike regular bullets. The Compressed air gun would also have to have it's own coolant supply to keep the ice-bullets frozen, so it would have a very low concealability. Due to the Compressed Air propellant, I would give it very short ranges, like a light pistol, except it would be Single Shot only. Only other bonus, since it's Compressed Air powered, it would act like a silenced weapon. This kind of thing can work, but I'd treat it partly like flechette, doubling all armor values, but not increasing the damage done to unarmored targets. It could work, but it's the kind of thing someone with the "Distinctive Style Flaw" would use. |
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Jan 26 2005, 07:34 PM
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#72
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Distinctive style to say the least. Can you imagine a runner toting around a Radio Flyer wagon with the coolant and compressor?
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Jan 26 2005, 09:32 PM
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#73
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 611 Joined: 21-October 03 From: Yorkshire Toxic Zone Member No.: 5,752 |
In a book by Stephen Brookmyre called 'a big boy done it and ran away' (this man writes truly excellent comedy thrillers) a hitman uses a specially made (in that he made it specially, himself, not that there was someone doing a trade in these things) crossbow bolt made of ice. Shot his mark in the eye, by the time the police got there all that was left was a big pool of blood (slightly diluted, one careless owner). No idea if it would work, but its cool, no? |
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Jan 26 2005, 10:04 PM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
I had a professor once tell me about a scrapped CIA plan to use crossbow bolts made of ice. I guess the idea there was to get listening devices into the conference room of an embassy. I would imagine the plan got scrapped due to either one of the two obvious holes in the plan that I see, or one of the probably many that I dont'. For one thing, it would still have to break the window. For another, it would create a pool of water, and if I were responding to a broken window and saw a pool of water, I'd at the very least assume there might be a leak and look up.
As to magic bullets, this is why I told Arlen Specter he couldn't be in my gaming group, even if his last name WAS Specter.. |
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Jan 26 2005, 10:34 PM
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#75
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
In world war two, they had plains to make Air Craft Caries out of ice. The trick to making ships out of ice,is to throw something in it.In WWII they used saw dust. I think it was calk plicrek(sp) and it was harder,strong and took a lot more heat than normal ice.
Now, take away the saw dust and add something like say, ground up bones. |
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