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> movement and shooting
James McMurray
post Feb 1 2005, 07:22 PM
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How do you stop someone moving out of cover then back with a held action? Delayed actions take place either before or after the person you delayed until. From what I've seen there is no canon way to interrupt someone else's turn.

Moving while casting: It is allowed. But you take the movement penalties for doing it. That means running and trying to hit some gaurds behind cover with a manaball is going to be pretty tough (+8 to the target number).

My original problem with moving while casting was because I didn't realize that movement penalties apply to casting. Now that I know, it makes it a much less troublesome proposition.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 1 2005, 07:34 PM
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They move out of cover during the entire phase, as covered before. You interrupt them after they've moved beyond cover but before they act.

~J
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James McMurray
post Feb 1 2005, 07:45 PM
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Except that they don't move out of cover for the entire phase unless they want to stay behind the cover. That is unless you're throwing a house rule into the mix.
The standard method of an SR turn is:

1) someone declares an action.
2) if someone delaying wants to interrupt they declare their action
3) the delayer takes his action, unless he'd rather go last (this works differently if there is more than one delayer)
4) the original someone takes their action.

The reason you don't get to shoot someone while they're moving is because that "take an action" encompasses movement, a free action, and two simple actions (or one complex). The movement all occurs during the same combat phase and that person's entire action.

Yes, its an abstraction of real life, but its the way the rules work. House rules are necessary if you want to be able to shoot someone in the middle of their action, or before they can turn around and walk (or run) back to cover.

Note: I'm not saying that house rules are wrong. My group has implemented a house rule for this very reason. I just like to make sure that innocent bystanders in a discussion can easily differentiate a house rule from the RAW. When I first started playing that other game I went to several forums and found myself confused because people would say house rules and act as if they were the real rules. I try to save others that problem by pointing out when something is a house rule.
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TeOdio
post Feb 1 2005, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
But if you're using house rules to cover flaws in the SR movement system, you should probably refrain from telling people that they are soiling the game by using the rules as written.

Hey man, twas just a Jest :D
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mfb
post Feb 1 2005, 07:49 PM
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uh, no it doesn't. movement is not part of your action. it's quite seperate.
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grendel
post Feb 1 2005, 07:53 PM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
The reason you don't get to shoot someone while they're moving is because that "take an action" encompasses movement, a free action, and two simple actions (or one complex).

Taking an action actually occurs simultaneously with movement. The problem lies in timing, but it can be resolved by having whoever is holding the action be very specific when they declare, i.e. "I'm going to hold my action until the security guard steps out from cover and then shoot him."
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James McMurray
post Feb 1 2005, 07:56 PM
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Movement is done on your combat turn. If you spread it out amongst the turn how do you determine where someone is at any given combat phase? And why is it worded "their combat turn" instead of "the combat turn"?

It seems pretty clear to me that by "their combat turn" they mean" the combat phase the character performs his actions on."

I'd love for someone to explain it to me better though.
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mfb
post Feb 1 2005, 08:23 PM
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dude, Combat Turn is a very specific term in SR. it's defined in the second paragraph on page 100 of SR3. i'm not sure what you're trying to change it into with that argument--it sounds like you're thinking that they mixed up "Combat Turn" with "Phase" or something--but the text is pretty clearly against you.

SR3 also clearly defines when movement takes place: between initiative passes. that means that a given movement starts on one initiative pass, and ends on the next. in between those two initiative passes, you are considered moving. if your movement is to jump out from cover and then jump back behind cover, you are considered not behind cover from the time you start the movement until the time you end it. the second paragraph under Movement Rate on page 108 of SR3 explains this fairly clearly. during any combat phase between the one on which you started moving and the one on which you get to act again, you're moving (and therefore not behind cover).
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James McMurray
post Feb 1 2005, 08:30 PM
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I have definitely been reading that section wrong. Thanks!

That just leaves the questions:

1) You can start moving on any combat phase, including someone else's. With that in mind, how far do you move per combat phase?

2) If you start moving on the last combat phase of a pass is your movement cut down because of it?

3) If you start moving on the first combat phase, how far have you gone when the third combat phase rolls around?
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SuperSpy
post Feb 1 2005, 08:36 PM
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This is from the FAQ under the combat section. It may help you out.

QUOTE

Can a character change the type of movement within his or her own Combat Phases?
Technically, no. On her first Combat Phase of the Combat Turn, a character should declare whether she is walking, running or staying stationary. Declaring the mode of movement is important as it determines what target numbers apply for ranged combat for the remainder of that turn. This is true even if the character doesn't take her full movement allowance during a Combat Phase. A razorgirl who declares she is running on her first Combat Phase still suffers running modifiers even if she doesn't move on subsequent Combat Phases in that turn. Once walking or running has been declared, the character cannot change her movement mode until the first Combat Phase of her next Combat Turn.
Characters who remain stationary may later declare to walk or run on a subsequent Combat Phase, in which case target number modifiers immediately apply.
Gamemasters may, of course, choose to bend the rules and allow characters to switch movement modes each Combat Phase, but be warned that this creates additional complexities with target numbers and the exact distance that can be moved each phase. If you allow this, you end up with situations where a character who sprinted for two Combat Phases in a row (and was thus hard to hit) suddenly stops stationary and shoots back without suffering movement modifiers.

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grendel
post Feb 1 2005, 08:38 PM
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It depends on whether you are walking or running and what you're movement modifier is. For a human, you can walk (quickness)meters per combat turn or run (quickness x 3) meters per combat turn. That movement is broken down by the number of initiative passes per turn.

1 initiative passes per turn -> walk (quickness) meters or run (quickness x 3) meters
2 initiative passes per turn -> walk (quickness/2) meters per pass or run (quickness x 3 / 2) meters per pass
3 initiative passes per turn -> walk (quickness/3) meters per pass or run (quickness) meters per pass

Note that movement is broken down by the total number of initiative passes in the turn, and not the number of passes that the moving character can act in. So if you have a character with an 8 initiative moving in a 3 initiative pass turn, that character will move 1/3rd of his total possible movement (walking or running) each pass.

If a character does not start moving until the last pass of the combat turn, s/he can only move the appropriate increment of his/her total movement. That is, if a character with three total initiative passes in the turn decided to run in the third pass of the turn, s/he would only be able to move (quickness) meters.

Edited for clarity.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 1 2005, 08:40 PM
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Erm, you mean initiative passes instead of combat phases, right?
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James McMurray
post Feb 1 2005, 08:50 PM
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grendel: that doesn't tell how to determine where someone is on a given combat phase. What if my movement involves running out from behind a piece of cover into the open, back behind another piece of cover, back out into the open, then behind a final piece of cover. During what phase am I behind the middle piece of cover.

Reading that last bit confused even me, so I'll try to explain a little better.

Joe Schmoe, average runner, has a quickness of 3 and a running modifier of 3. He starts the turn behind a shed, with a big troll samurai ready to take his head off.

This combat turn has only one combat phase. At the start of the phase Joe starts running. His path takes him out from behind the shed into the open, themn behind a second shed. He keeps going, back into the open, and finally finishes behind a third shed.

On what initiative passes is Joe out in the open, and on what intiative passes is he behind a shed?
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mfb
post Feb 1 2005, 08:56 PM
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unless you're using detailed maps and whatnot, it doesn't matter. for the purposes of the game mechanics, you occupy all points between your starting position and your ending position during the time you're moving. there's no official game mechanic for breaking up movement by phase, though i suppose you could divide the distance being travelled by the number of phases to figure out movement per phase. if you don't want to get that detailed, then you just determine that running behind sheds gives you an average +4 cover (with an additional, what, +2 for target running?).
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James McMurray
post Feb 1 2005, 09:00 PM
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Except that it does matter. If the enemy doesn't go until several passes later, he may be able to delay from his action to the time when the character comes out from behind the second piece of cover. For example:

Phase 1 (init 8): Joe heads out into the open
Phase 2 (init 7): Joe is in the open
Phase 3 (init 5): Joe is behind cover #2
Phase 4 (init 4): Enemy gunner delays, hoping to get a shot at Joe
Phase 5 (init 3): Jimmy, Joe's buddy, kills the enemy gunner
Phase 6 (init 2): Jimmy is out of cover again
Phase 7 (init 1): Jimmy is back behind cover.

Depending on which phases Jimmy is behind cover, the enemy may never be able to take a shot at Joe before being gunned down.

And for the record: we do use a battlemat.
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SuperSpy
post Feb 1 2005, 09:05 PM
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It may just be because I come from a Battletech background, but I've always figured that attacks are resolved with characters at the end point of their declared movement. Thus, in your scenario, Joe would be behind shed 3 when anyone shoots.
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mfb
post Feb 1 2005, 09:11 PM
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*shrug* the base rules aren't really made for using a battlemat. if you use one, you've pretty much got to write your own rules when discrepancies like that come up.
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TeOdio
post Feb 1 2005, 10:24 PM
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In larger battles where it helps clarify things like this, I like using a battlemat myself. Here's how we break it down.
Runner 1 gets a 15 on his initiative. Has a quickness of 5.
Runner 2 gets a 9 on her initiative, has a quickness of 4.
Goons 1 and 2 both go on 8, and have a quickness of 3.
At the start of the round (after the surprise round), goon 1 and 2 are taking partial cover from a crate so that they can fire at the Runners.
Runner 1 is 4 meters from a crate from which he can take cover.
Runner 2 is already fully behind a crate.
The highest number of passes is 2 (runner 1 has 2 actions)
We then divide up the movement rates a character can move in a pass by 2.

On 15, Runner 1 decides to bolt for the crate and take full cover. Since his quickness is a 5, and running is a x3 (he's no Dwarf), his max for the TURN/ROUND would be 15 meters. We divide that by 2 (the number of passes) and get 7.5. Since he is only 4 meters away, he'll reach the crate by the end of his phase. He takes a pot shot at Goon 1 and misses because a. he is running, and b. Goon 1 has partial cover.

On 9, Runner 2 decides to move a meter towards partial cover and fire a gun and then walk back behinds full cover. She can do this because of her quickenss of 4 (divided by 2 ) is 2 meters she can move in this phase. At the end of the phase she will be back behind full cover. She fires and barely hits due to walking and the partial cover of the Goon.

On 8, Goon 1 Takes a shot at Runner 1 (adding in the modifier of the target running, he hasn't gotten to cover yet, and tags him with a moderate wound.

On 7, Goon 2 got shot, and his initiative decreased, fires back at Runner 2, but missies due to her partial cover and his light wound.

On 0, all movement is complete, place the characters where they would have ended up.

Pass 2
Runner 1 has full cover.
Runner 2 has full cover.
Goon 1 has partial cover.
Goon 2 has partial cover.

On 5, Runner 1 decides to ready a grenade and throw it over the crates. He takes the blind fire penalty but he doesn't care. He gets lucky and places it 4 meters from Goon
1.

On 0, Runner 2 (with a higher reaction than goon 1 or 2, decides to run towards Runner 1's position. She can move 6 meters in this phase.

On 0, Goon 1 wants to move away from the grenade, but it detonates on 0 as well. He can move a total of 4.5 meters if he survives the blast.

On 0, Goon 2 doesn't move a bit.

Place all characters where they would have ended up.

If you want to take cover after firing but still be able get that full cover bonus, just drop prone. Of course this only works if you have cover that isn't taller than about shoulder high. Your enemies can do the same and you have a very realistic shootout
where you can't hit a damn thing (damn +8 and Barrier reduction). This negates being able to do any complex actions as you have to expend a simple to get up and shoot. someone eventually will want to move to a position where they can get a clear shot, and thus open themselves up for attack.

:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:
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RedmondLarry
post Feb 1 2005, 10:38 PM
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If a character simply takes cover in my game I use the simple Cover rules. +4 penalty to getting shot, no penalty to shooting.

If a character wants to duck in and out of cover to shoot or cast spells, I use the Advanced rules for Cover Modifiers (Cannon Companion page 97'). Using these rules provided by the game developers works for me.
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grendel
post Feb 2 2005, 02:29 AM
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QUOTE (James McMurray)
grendel: that doesn't tell how to determine where someone is on a given combat phase. What if my movement involves running out from behind a piece of cover into the open, back behind another piece of cover, back out into the open, then behind a final piece of cover. During what phase am I behind the middle piece of cover.

Reading that last bit confused even me, so I'll try to explain a little better.

Joe Schmoe, average runner, has a quickness of 3 and a running modifier of 3. He starts the turn behind a shed, with a big troll samurai ready to take his head off.

This combat turn has only one combat phase. At the start of the phase Joe starts running. His path takes him out from behind the shed into the open, themn behind a second shed. He keeps going, back into the open, and finally finishes behind a third shed.

On what initiative passes is Joe out in the open, and on what intiative passes is he behind a shed?

Depends on how you want to handle things. In a combat turn with only one initiative pass, you have a maximum of ten possible divisions to the combat turn. A runner with a quickness of 3 and a running modifier of 3 can move a maximum of 9 meters, or 0.9 meters per combat turn division. Assuming our runner starts running at 10, then the breakdown could look something like this.

10 : cover
9 : cover
8 : open
7 : open
6 : cover
5 : cover
4 : open
3 : open
2 : cover
1 : cover

So on combat phase 8, 7, 4, and 3 the troll street sam can shoot at the runner. The other times our runner is under cover. If the street sam goes before the runner, then he simply delays until the runner exits his cover, then shoots. Either way, the only modifier is the +2 for our runner's movement, plus whatever other modifiers the shooter has (wounds, lighting, recoil, cover, etc.)
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James McMurray
post Feb 2 2005, 02:38 AM
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Yeah, when the shooter is capable of delaying it won't really matter. The only times it would matter is when someone is going to kill the shooter before the runner comes out of cover again.

But I'm starting to think its just too much to track and I should be looking for simpler methods. I don't think I can break my group of the battlemat, and I don't really want to because it means a heck of a lot more stuff I have to keep track of in my head or on little scraps of paper. And since my head is like asieve some days, and I can blink and lose a sheet of paper, the battlemat is basically the only way I can function as a GM some days. :)
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mfb
post Feb 2 2005, 03:15 AM
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when someone starts their move, just place them halfway between their starting point and their endpoint, assign them a flat amount of cover basec on the terrain between the startpoint and endpoint, and leave it at that. when that character's next turn comes up, place their piece at the endpoint.
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RedmondLarry
post Feb 2 2005, 05:06 AM
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There is a simple way. The Advanced Cover rules on page 97 of Cannon Companion.
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The White Dwarf
post Feb 2 2005, 07:31 AM
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It doesnt matter when he is behind what shed, even with a battlemat.

If the shed is big enough to take up a square/hex/unit on the map, it allows you to determine a LoS from minature to minature at the time of the shot. If the shot is a held action, the shooter can just declare to shoot whenever the target is in an open area as it moves down the mat. If not, itll be apparent where the cover is using the models.

If the shed doesnt take up a square or likewise be marked on the mat, then its not big enough to provide total cover, leaving the same cover modifier youre left with anyhow.

It sounds like youre trying to find a rule that prevents people from using the 'move isnt an action' thing to cheese out by staying totally hidden when its not their turn. The way SR is written, thats an impossibility; there is no specific rule. Due to the generalized nature of the combat and the much more reactive delaying rules, it virtually cannot happen.

In any example of "whats to stop me from moving, shooting, and moving" the answer is "the opposition held an action until youre visible". Thats all there is to it. Youre in total cover behind a wall, I aim my gun there, you at some point have to move out to shoot, I take my shot first. Thats how it goes.

In the event of the attacker being able to act before the defender (thus creating a situation where the defender cannot have a delayed action), the defender loses. Thats the penalty for surprise in a world with guns or hp. Moral of the story: have high Perception, wear armor, and stay frosty.
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James McMurray
post Feb 2 2005, 03:53 PM
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Right, I get that now. That part of my original question was because I misunderstood the movement rules.

However, the second part is still not answered by your post. There will be times when movement does matter, such as when someone delays but they get killed before the runner comes out from cover. In that situation its the delayer that loses. Others have given good ways to figure out where someone is on a given combat phase.

Thanks for the input everyone!
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