Skillwires/ActiveSofts, How to get more dice than a normal char. Options

[bitrunner]

OK, i had one of my players (who's also a skilled GM) come to me with this little nugget...

Is there anything that prevents someone with skillwires, multiple chipjacks with expert drivers (Rating 3), and skillsofts from slotting the same skill at the same time. for example, if you purchase 3 chipjacks and 3 separate skillsofts for Pistol 6, is there any reason why you wouldn't be able to slot all three chips at the same time?? Also, to complicate matters, what if the person also had the skill naturally??

Since you can activate modes of cyberware as a free action, what is preventing you from doing this.

i'm concerned because, consider this:

the person has native Pistols 6 skill, and buys the cyber/chips above, maxed out on expert drivers. the character also has a combat pool of 9.

this means that he could, just in one combat turn, use his native skill and fire a Pistol and use 6 of his combat pool. Then, as a free action, he can activate his skillwires, and now is using the chip, which provides a task pool of 3. He can use these task pool, plus 3 more from his combat pool, for another 6 pool dice. He has now used a total of 12 pool dice, whereas the normal person would have only 9.
Or, even worse - he slots the skill twice, and goes into combat - as a free action, he "activates" the first skillsoft, providing him with Pistols 6 and a task pool of 3 for that skillsoft. he uses 3 combat pool to max out his pool dice. He then fires the second shot using the next skillsoft/chipjack, which is also Pistols 6 and has its own task pool of 3, and he uses another 3 dice from his combat pool. thus, he has attacked twice with a semiauto pistol (2 shots) and used 12 dice for each shot (6 skill plus 6 total pool dice), and still has 3 combat pool dice left over for dodging/damage resistance!!

even worse is when the character is decking, because they can use multiple skillsofts in Computer/Decking to effectively provide 3 extra hacking pool dice per chip - if you use the Quick Resolution system in MrJLBB, that is 3 pieces of ICE that can be jammed for "free" without touching the character's main hacking pool!!

(keep in mind that M&M pg 48 talks about Task Pools - because it is granted by the Expert Driver, it can be used with ANY skill...)

[Backgammon]

Honestly, I'd just say "No you can't do that."

[Cochise]

[akarenti]

Okay, I'm sure if I really understand the scenario, but hear goes.

3 Chipjacks (each with a rating 3 Expert Driver)
Rating 6 Skillwires w/ 108 Mp of Active Memory
3 Standard Pistols Activesofts

First off, you can't use Combat Pool with slotted skills (p296, SR3). (Unless they are programmed with the DIMAP option, wich is rather expensive and increases availablity a bit (p61, 64, CC))

I would rule that a single Chipjack Expert Driver could only add it's Task Pool once per Combat Turn. So you get to switch between the Activesofts for a killer first Phase or two.

Of course the above system costs over 400,000 :nuyen: and 2.4 Essense. Not to mention Chips aren't exactly armor plated or anything. Nor are player characters after they spend 400,000 :nuyen: and 2.4 Essense on skillwires.

That brings up an interesting question: Do Chipjack Expert Drivers increase the effectiveness of Skilltwitcher programs?

Edit: Cochise beat me to the post. :(

[tisoz]

To run 2 Rating 6 chips with DIMAP 3 at the same time requires skillwires that cost 2.4 essence and 2,916,000 nuyen. If they are going to try using free actions to switch between the 2, running only one at a time, it still costs 729,000 nuyen. Just for the wires. They also need to make a (DIMAP rating)M Stun test every time they quit using the chip, Willpower only.

[tisoz]

[akarenti]

[tisoz]

No problem, I just don't know if bitrunner and the guy who came up with the scenario thought of all the things needed to make the idea function. Or the huge costs.

If they did consider all the requirements, I don't see the problem with game balance.

[JaronK]

I think he only needs the rating 6 system with 200+mp... he's switching out one pistols 6 for the other, so they're never used at the same time. I'd allow it, since the essence and money costs will keep him from using other rather valuable cyberware... like wired reflexes, at least to start.

JaronK

[tisoz]

So how are they getting 2 Free Actions and 2 Simple actions a combat phase?

Example:
Pistols 6 slotted, use that chip to fire pistol - Simple action.
Deactivate cyberware - Chipjack running Pistol Skillsoft #1 - Free Action (neccessary to unencumber skillwire load.)
Activate cyberware - Chipjack running Pistol Skillsoft #2 - Free action (should be out of actions for this combat phase)
Fire Pistol - Simple Action

[hahnsoo]

[bitrunner]

oops, forgot about the DIMAP....yes, he would have that on the chips...

the whole character concept revolves around the skillwires - the "jack-of-all-trades" character - so soaking up the majority of his essence for the skillwires is trivial...he also has taken Priority A for resources, so he's got his mill nuyen, most of which is invested in the skillwires and chips...

so, by canon then, it CAN be done...there is nothing that says in canon that you can't do this, was my point...

also, where is the rule that mentions you have to make a stun check after using a chip?? i'm not familiar with that....

as for the Computer problem - i just realized that as soon as he turns off the chipjack, any Task Pool that are being used to "jam" ICE (using the QR rules) would be shut off as well, so that mitigates THAT little problem.


i guess the big thing that made me nervous was that there was that slight change in the Task Pool, because IIRC in SR2 it was only usable for tech, knowledge, B/R skills, etc and NOT for ANY skill, such as combat skills...

[tisoz]

The Stun check is feature of the DIMAP option. It's in the description in CC.61. DIMAP isn't available at start.

[Cochise]

[Glyph]

There are much more efficient ways to get an advantage in ranged combat or decking.

In the ranged combat example, the character has to waste time turning on skillwires, then resist Drain from the DIMAP chip, simply to get 3 extra dice for that second shot (assuming that the GM has looser availability rules, and the combo is even possible at char-gen). It's better to have a reflex recorder, and have 1 extra die for both shots at a fraction of the cost. Not to mention adepts, who can get 6 dice of improved ability that apply to every single shot. The CED is good, but not so much so for combat skills.

As far as decking, a Math SPU: 3 is much cheaper and gives the same 3-dice benefit. If you get the pricier Encephalon: 2 as well, you wind up with 5 dice.

[tisoz]

Something else...

If skillwires don't work while a rigger goes into the machine, why would they work while decking?

[gamemaster]

i have a very good and simple solution.........come back next week with a real character...see ya.

[mfb]

yes. because the ability to switch back and forth between natural skill and skillwires automatically means that the character was built as a one-trick pony with no background or personality.

[Glyph]

It's not even a character at this point, though, just a "nugget". The player/former GM might not even be interested in playing such a character; it may have simply been curiosity about how the rules would work.


I admit, though, that I have felt the same frustration when I see people assume that a min-maxed character must automatically be a munchkin with no personality.

[Botch]

Another thing that could be done with the skillwire-warrior is link in the senses and connection A/V recognition systems, auto-pilot, and targeting (sentrygun-esque) to provide physical protection whilst decking.

[Lantzer]

I have a little rule of thumb that I picked up while playing and GMing Champions a while back...

Keep it Simple.

In general, I've found that the players who make more mechanically straightforward characters tend to be more fun to play with. This is generally because they have followed the shortest path to filling a character concept. Perhaps I'm wierd, but I look at a game system as a way to model the mental picture I have of a character in a setting. I occasionally play with the numbers to see what I can come up with, but I can't think of a time I actually had any desire to _play_ one of those monstrosities.

If a character 'looks' like an excercise in squeezing advantages out of game's mechanics, then it is likely that the character _is_ such an excercise.

Why would a character get multiple skillwire jacks slotted with exactly the same skill when 'everybody knows' that there's no point? Only because the player is attempting to exploit a case that the the rules were not designed to deal with. The reasons for this set-up are entirely rules-mechanics based. And if the player is honest, he recognises this.

I find that sort of excercise entertaining to discuss, but irritating when someone tries to actually put it into play. Probably because the character in question is usually built around a single mechanical trick, and the player gets antsy if he doesn't get a chance to show off his trick. If he does get to use it, he quickly bores of it, and starts looking for the next trick.

Now, it is possible to have a mechanical trick imbedded in an otherwise really cool character. If this is the case, would the character be any less cool if, for example, the multi-parelell-redundant skillwire trick was removed and replaced with a single system as the rules-set is built to handle? If the character is actually cool, you will see no difference. Just a few less dice being thrown around, and less time being spent buried in rulebooks trying to get the trick to work out right. If the removal of the trick somehow makes the character now totally unplayable and uncool, then you know where the player's interest truly was.

So I suppose, in practice, my reaction to this would be:

"Hey, that's neat. That's pretty clever of you. So, anyway, where's your character?"

And you haven't seen rules-rapes until you've worked with Champions.

[bitrunner]

hehe, the player in question is my Champions GM, and a Legionnaire!

btw, he's not a "one trick pony" unless you consider having the skillwires a "one trick"...interestingly enough, when he played the character the other night, we discovered the downside to the system. If you don't have a chip slotted, you can't use the skill. Seems obvious, but a situation arose that required anyone that had a chemistry skill (mind you, a knowledge skill, so the wires wouldn't be needed anyways, but he's all about the chips) could have a chance to notice something special about their surroundings. since he did not have said chip slotted, he could not make the test - and he had no reason to justify (with only character knowledge) that he might want to do so...

also, he's got plenty of background and personality for this character - it is almost a clone of another character he played in my last campaign that lasted for almost 5 years...he enjoys skillwires and being a jack-of-all-trades....remember that the follow-up to the saying is "master-of-none"...

[BitBasher]

Er, shouldn't everyone been allowed to roll at a default of +4 to int, unless the base TN for the test was higher than 8? That represnets the "I watch CSI and Mister Wizard" casual knowledge some folks might have, the odds are just bad,

[Botch]

[Cochise]

Oh, there are some other drawbacks with that skill wire setup:

• SOTA - This character better earns lots of money to keep his chips at SOTA level.
• Once you use DIMAP as positive options for chip coding, the negative options are in the game as well ...
• As you already saw: Non-sloted skills just aren't availible and without due reason, the character will not slot the proper skill at the right time.
• Chips can be taken away from him

As said before: If a player is willing to go that route, he / she's due to receive some advantages from it. That's the idea of having implants in the first place ...

@ BitBasher: It's those bad odd, that make it work out fine. He doesn't have the skill and the high TN will often prevent him from slotting the correct chip in time of "need" in more than enough situations ...