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> Failures DICE POOLS, What dos it happen?
Luca
post Feb 2 2005, 11:39 AM
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Few years ago I used to paly a bit of Shadowrun 2nd ed. Now I'm starting again with 3rd edition. There is a problem I have: is it true that if all dices from teh pools fail, the test is failed even is teh normal dices are all ok? Probably it is a stupid thing taht I remmebr from 2nd ediion or probably it was not even there but it is simply a "bug" in my mind.
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Sandoval Smith
post Feb 2 2005, 11:45 AM
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Your question doesn't make much sense. Do you mean:

When using skill and pool dice (I.E pistols and combat pool), if all the pool dice fail, does the test fail, even if the skill dice do not?

The answer is no. It's simply a bug in your mind.
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Aes
post Feb 2 2005, 11:56 AM
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I think the rule you got mixed up is this:

When you make a check where pool dice are eligble(sp?), you announce how many dice from the pool you allocate BEFORE you make the check. If the normal non-pool dices fail to generate any successes, the pool dice don't count (and aren't returned before the pool refreshes either). The logic being that dice pools can improve results, but it can't turn failures into successes. (You can, of course, use karma to reroll your skill check. If this generates successes, you can use your allocated pool dice as normal).
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Fortune
post Feb 2 2005, 12:29 PM
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Got a page reference and/or quote for that little tidbit, Aes?
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Grinder
post Feb 2 2005, 12:38 PM
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I don't have my book at hand, but i would go with Aes. At least we play it that way in our group - it may be a house rule, but i don't think so.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 2 2005, 12:50 PM
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QUOTE (Grinder)
I don't have my book at hand, but i would go with Aes. At least we play it that way in our group - it may be a house rule, but i don't think so.

What you stated only applies to Complementary Skill/Centering tests. There are no rules prohibiting Pool successes from applying to tests, other than the rules applying to individual pools (you can't add more Combat Pool than the level of the skill being used). The page references is BBB p43.

Many groups also use the optional Combat "Oops!" rules (from the Cannon Companion? It's definitely in Fields of Fire), which states if you roll an amount of 1s greater than your skill, it counts as an "Oops!"
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Aes
post Feb 2 2005, 12:55 PM
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I'll look it up when I get home from univ. Pretty sure it was on one of the rools describing firing rules in SR3. I guess I'll know in 5 hours.
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Fortune
post Feb 2 2005, 12:56 PM
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I just re-read the section on Dice Pools in SR3 and cannot find any reference to that rule. Maybe I missed it yet again, but I don't think so, which is why I asked for a page reference.

I think that there used to be a similar rule about using the Karma Pool, in that there must be at least one success in order to purchase additional successes.

There is also a rule about using Centering dice, wherein there must be at least one success on the original test for Centering to have any effect.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 2 2005, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (Aes)
I'll look it up when I get home from univ. Pretty sure it was on one of the rools describing firing rules in SR3. I guess I'll know in 5 hours.

The only other reference I could find was p104 in the BBB, and it states the same thing as p43.
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Aes
post Feb 2 2005, 01:13 PM
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Well, confusing is the SR rules in a nutshell at times. I'm 110% certain it mentions in the combat phase section that combat pool dice should be a different color than the skill dice. I can't really see why the distinction is important, unless the skill roll success is a prerequisite for the combat pool die. Not to mention it fits the logic of a skill roll needing at least one success before you can buy successes with karma.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 2 2005, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (Aes)
I'm 110% certain it mentions in the combat phase section that combat pool dice should be a different color than the skill dice. I can't really see why the distinction is important, unless the skill roll success is a prerequisite for the combat pool die. Not to mention it fits the logic of a skill roll needing at least one success before you can buy successes with karma.

It does say Pool dice should be a different color, but it doesn't state the reason why. It could be grandfathered in from SR2, when dodge tests did not exist. In SR2, if you rolled more successes than the attack test with just combat pool dice, it was considered a dodge.
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Cochise
post Feb 2 2005, 01:21 PM
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QUOTE (Aes)
Well, confusing is the SR rules in a nutshell at times. I'm 110% certain it mentions in the combat phase section that combat pool dice should be a different color than the skill dice.

Yes ... which is not too bad of an idea to keep track of used pool dice ;)

QUOTE
I can't really see why the distinction is important, unless the skill roll success is a prerequisite for the combat pool die.


However, such as restriction does not exist in SR3 (and I can't recall such a restriction in SR 1 or SR 2 either). The two parts where such a limitation exists have been mentioned by Fortune: Centering and buying successes with karma pool.

QUOTE
Not to mention it fits the logic of a skill roll needing at least one success before you can buy successes with karma.


Actually, there's not much logic in there, since the the requirement for buying successes is that you have at least a single success on the test itself, but no reference where that success might come from =>Even bonus dice like the one from enhanced articulation qualify for meeting that requirement. And bonus dice are neither pool nor skill, yet they can generally produce a success on success test (no rule telling otherwise, just as with the pool dice).
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James McMurray
post Feb 2 2005, 03:59 PM
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Perhaps there is no rule telling otherwise because that's how they wanted it to work?
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Spider
post Feb 2 2005, 04:16 PM
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The logic for having different colored dice for combat pool is quite simple.

Whan you spend karma to re-roll you can't roll the dice from the combat pool you just used up. That way, a player trying to soak heavy damage cannot get out of drek every time by re-rolling all dices he can from his pool to help him (he can use a number of dices from combat pool up to his body rating in that case).

So combat pool dice are very precious cause when you roll them you really want to have success cause there's no way there coming back on the same roll. So you can spend karma to re-roll your attribute or skill rating(only the dice that ended up with no success) but you won't be allowed to re-roll your combat pool dice.

That way if you have 8 C.pool dices, you look at those colored dice and you know you get to roll those dice only once in the round. That's why you keep them apart and when you use them, you just push them away.

¸With that rule on, your character with only 3 in body that add poll dices to soak get to really wish the combat pool dices spawn some success on the roll to absorb damage. (but i really encourage my player to dodge with the pool instead of soak because of the automatic success the polol dices involved later on the soak roll)
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BitBasher
post Feb 2 2005, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE
Whan you spend karma to re-roll you can't roll the dice from the combat pool you just used up.
Er, yes you can. The Rules for rerolling say you can reroll all the failed dice on a test. If ou shoot a fun, and use 6 skill and 6 combat pool, that's 12 dice you are rolling on that test. Therefore all 12 dice get rerolled if you reroll all the fice that failed on that test.

QUOTE
That way, a player trying to soak heavy damage cannot get out of drek every time by re-rolling all dices he can from his pool to help him (he can use a number of dices from combat pool up to his body rating in that case).
That's because the dodge test is separate from damage resistance in 3rd edition, they are two separate tests. This isn't because pool dice don't reroll.

The remainder of your post is entirely faulty due to this distinction. You definitely do reroll pool dice in any single test. I challenge you to find a page number that states otherwise.
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Luca
post Feb 2 2005, 11:45 PM
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MY QUESTION: can anyone show me where EXACTLY (which page??) in the rulebook. 3rd ed., it is stated the importance of keeping separated the dices from the pool and the normal ones???
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tisoz
post Feb 2 2005, 11:55 PM
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SR3.43 AND SR3.104
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Spider
post Feb 3 2005, 12:08 AM
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Dammit,

I've played with a pretty harsh house rule for many years. It's my error. I've just check the base rulebook and frankly, i'me wrong. That just mean the game will be far more lethal, i mean if from now on my PC and NPC can re-roll ALL those dice with there karma pool, it's gonna be and incredible freakin bloody mess!

But hey, i gotta try it that way!(since player character have more pool and karma points than npc, my players are gonna be very happy with this!)

Thanks for the comment.
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RedmondLarry
post Feb 3 2005, 12:23 AM
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Spider, your players should occasionally run into someone with higher skill, higher Combat Pool, and/or higher Karma Pool. Otherwise they'll think they can solve every problem with combat, and that shouldn't be true.
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mfb
post Feb 3 2005, 12:27 AM
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...i've always solved those problems with more combat.
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hahnsoo
post Feb 3 2005, 12:33 AM
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QUOTE (mfb)
...i've always solved those problems with more combat.

If brute force isn't working, you aren't using enough of it. *grin*
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James McMurray
post Feb 3 2005, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (Spider)
But hey, i gotta try it that way!(since player character have more pool and karma points than npc, my players are gonna be very happy with this!)

Over the course of time opponents have much more karma pool than PCs. Just a group of 6 elite lone star swat members has ~24 karma pool available. For the party to have that much (Assuming 4 players) they would have had to earn 60 karma each (more if there are metahumans in the group).

If there are three combats in a run, each against opponents that have equal numbers to the party, and ~50% of the average karma pool, you'll end up with 150% total karma pool for the enemies.

Granted, that really depends on play style. If you have very few combats, then the players' larger karma pools really shines through.
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BitBasher
post Feb 3 2005, 01:51 AM
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QUOTE
But hey, i gotta try it that way!(since player character have more pool and karma points than npc, my players are gonna be very happy with this!)
IMHO this shouldn't always be the case. You can always run across veterans in security, or people doing the job just because. It happens.
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TeOdio
post Feb 3 2005, 02:02 AM
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QUOTE (hahnsoo)
It does say Pool dice should be a different color, but it doesn't state the reason why. It could be grandfathered in from SR2, when dodge tests did not exist. In SR2, if you rolled more successes than the attack test with just combat pool dice, it was considered a dodge.

I make them use different color dice for their pools because they don't "refresh" until the next round. As a player, it can be difficult to remember how much pool you used for what and how much you have left. If you separate pool dice from skill dice you can just set the ones you used aside until it "refreshes" again.
:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:
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Necro Tech
post Feb 3 2005, 02:21 AM
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I didn't see the original question answered so here goes. The rule for missing with pool dice is from 2nd ed. in the combat section. There was no dodging and pools refreshed every action. It was a way to limit pool use. The rule stated that if you had more successes with pool than skill dice, you missed. This was also true with karma. You couldn't use it for a re-roll unless you actually generated a success on the skill test.

Woops, It was answered.

This post has been edited by Necro Tech: Feb 3 2005, 02:22 AM
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