 The only thing better than XP!, Karma and the giving of... |
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 Feb 4 2005, 01:52 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 19-March 03 From: Central IL Member No.: 4,278  |
I am a longtime SR GM and am trying to evaluate how my group gives karma out. Currently I do a team reward that all PCs get. This includes categories for survival, success, and threat. Most of the time each one is worth 1-2 pts. I then have individual awards per the suggestions in SR3. These usually end up with each PC getting anywhere from 2-5 of these. I would say for an average run my PCs get about 7 karma. I am considering doing some changes (see below). I was wondering how other groups do karma rewards, or what suggestions other GMs have? Okay here is the list:
1 Go Iron fist stye and I will give it out based on my opinion of what people did and how much they added to the game. 2 I am thinking about making the team rewards(surv. succ threat) a little higher, but in turn making the extra awards harder to get. 3 Spreading the rewards out more (RPing bad-0, Avg-1, good-2, Great-3 or more) 4 Adding a new category "Player nominated." and having every player give a "best Player" vote and awarding that player an extra point, or maybe doing top 2? 5 One example I saw, that came across interesting but cheesy was.....Everytime a player does something that is awesome (big dramatic speech, awesome quote, super risky stunt that works, says hilarious 1 liner, etc.) the players yell out Karma and that PC is rewarded with an extra point at the end of the run. Obviously you have to set a limit on this or it could get crazy. Maybe a total of 3 "Karma!!s" a run at max. Also I know that the idea of screaming out karma, may seem a little to "BINGO!" to everyone, so somethign similar could be worked out. |
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Feb 4 2005, 02:09 AM
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#2
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
A lot of that just depends on how you want to balance your game. If you're giving out an average of 7 GK per run, the team will get pretty tough pretty quickly. If you want a higher powered game, or they need to be strong to survive it, go ahead. most of the published adventures average around 5 or so (for the shorter ones), up to about 8.
Good example, the individual "missions" in Harlequin's Back average around 8 GK, and those have some tough opponents and situations. It all comes down to how quickly you want them to beef up. In my game, I made an alternative up. I use "common sense points" for stuff like humor, good ideas, bring drinks, etc. 1 CSP is equal to 1 GK for knowledge skills only, mostly because I wanted them to get more use of of knowledge skills. And for every ten CSP, they can redeem them for 1 GK. I'm a bit stingy with the GK (now), and it seems to work pretty well. |
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Feb 4 2005, 02:27 AM
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#3
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 19-March 03 From: Central IL Member No.: 4,278 |
The common sense thing is cool. The group I am in frowns on characters getting karma for stuff the player does (like bring soda stuff like that). We do give it for Good RPing but that is something the player does with the character. In general (and I agree) rewarding players for non-game related things tends to leave a bad taste behind. I guess I was more looking for what categories people use. Do you just use the ones in SR3, make your own, or have a totally new karma system? As for the large karma awards, we only play ever other week, and most of us used to play weekly, so it helps to keep us from feeling like the PCs are not growing.
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Feb 4 2005, 03:46 AM
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#4
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
We give karma, XP, or whatever the system dictates for bringing food. Full tummies are funner to game with.
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Feb 4 2005, 03:54 AM
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#5
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
I give cold hard karma whenever someone buys a SR book we don't have yet. Brand new (or really old) books get more karma. Basically, harder to find, or more useful, more karma.
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Feb 4 2005, 04:21 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 164 Joined: 7-July 03 Member No.: 4,891 |
I give 2-3 karma per session, sometimes 4. Does anyone else figure by session instead of by run?
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Feb 4 2005, 04:53 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 211 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,444 |
The group I used to run with gave 9-20 per session, but in all fairness, our sessions were 8-12 hours long, and longer a couple times. That campaign ran to 300-400 karma, and the games were always challenging without challenging our view of the setting's reality. The GM generally gave out large group awards; he said it was about twice the recommended awards from the book because our sessions were so long, then awarded individual awards based on RP, particularly haroic (but not horrendously stupid) actions, and an extra point or two for whoever entertained the group the most (we were there to have fun, after all).
About the only odd thing he gave karma for was for the rigger. If the opportunity arose to temp the rigger into doing something that was likely to et the whole party killed, he'd offer an extra point or two of karma if he tried. For example; when we were trapped on top of a parking garage with the only real exits blocked, so the GM pointed out that there was a second story building next to us, only a ten foot drop, if the roof could hold us. Then there was a school bus across the street... and so on. At least the rigger was nice enough to ask if the school bus had any children in it before he inflicted serious wounds on the entire party with thre consecutive (more-or-less successful) crash tests in the custom-designed, speedy, tough, passenger trap (plus another flaw that increased the damage to passengers) van. (actually, the troll street sam took deadly damage because he had to hang out the window nd try to shoot the cyber-freaks chasing us while we made the first fall). Thanks for bringing back fond memories. S'Ren |
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Feb 4 2005, 05:25 AM
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#8
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Iron fist it baby. I long ago got over giving out equal karma just to spare peoples feelings. It you suck one night, don't roleplay, gank up the plan and nearly cause the whole team to botch the mission, you get 0 or 1 karma. Karma is a game mechanic for character advancement and success. You suck, you don't get any. Your character still gets paid because the Johnson doesn't know how bad you were.
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Feb 4 2005, 05:56 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 344 Joined: 5-January 05 From: Wherever this piece of meat rests. Member No.: 6,937 |
I usually give one point per session for survival. At the end of the run I'll give out the rest of it. Because of the complex nature of the runs I devise, it usually takes 3 to 4 game sessions to get through them (albeit only 3 - 5 hours at a pop). I give individual karma on the spot or after the run is completed but it isn't a whole heap. Usually 3 -5 points. The Big One scores more, or showing initiative and being successful.
:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen: |
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Feb 4 2005, 06:00 AM
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#10
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I was going to say, your Karma awards are approximately double the amount of Karma that is handed out in our sessions, but we play once a week. I'm quite sure that if we only played once every other week, the Karma awards would be larger. One thing you can try is a variation of the amoral campaign, where you give very little Karma, but allow PCs to buy Karma at a certain rate with limitations (we go with 5,000 nuyen per Karma point, up to 3 Karma maximum per session). It goes both ways, too... folks can sell off Karma for 1 Karma per 5,000 nuyen. They can also "trade" Karma to and from NPCs as favors. This keeps our Karma awards quite low (even the Mage in the group only buys maybe 2 Karma on a good payoff day, and typically doesn't end up buying any), but it puts more of an emphasis on earning cold hard cash (at least, the way we play it... I'm sure there are groups out there who would abuse the privilege). |
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Feb 4 2005, 06:23 AM
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#11
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Uncle Fisty Group: Admin Posts: 13,891 Joined: 3-January 05 From: Next To Her Member No.: 6,928 |
We use "cash for Karma" too, but since we've had this one going for a while (avg karma about 200), I charge 10k/ point, and allow up to half the runs karma. Some of the PC's have saved up to 600k, and most of them make stuff they need (enchanting for example), or already have their fun toys (samurai, face, and phys mage).
Starting a new game at a lower amount though, and still charging the same price, but only 1 GK max/per session. They're only getting 2-3 gk / per run. So in this one, still giving out the CSP's for most stuff, and since it's more street/roleplaying than B&E research lab raids, I'm giving a lot more GK for roleplaying to emphasize that to the players. |
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Feb 4 2005, 06:33 AM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 407 Joined: 22-March 04 Member No.: 6,183 |
I've given players Karma for out-of-game stuff such as going to get drinks/food/etc.
In-game, I usually just ask each player how much Karma they want. It may sound crazy, and occasionally I get an answer of "A MILLION!", it's not a serious answer. Usually the players (and myself, when I pass the GM mantle on) give an amount that it either exactly what I/the GM was considering, often a point less. This way of Karma dispersal has worked really well, because everyone gets what they want. It takes a good group to know what they've earned, I guess. |
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Feb 4 2005, 07:20 AM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 316 Joined: 18-July 03 Member No.: 4,963 |
Current GM I'm under simply assigns the entire team the same amount of karma when he awards it.
Part of it is simple game balance. Another part is that sometimes you end up with a plan that just doesn't have a place for a player. There's no reason to punish the player being left out. |
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Feb 4 2005, 09:10 AM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 3-May 04 Member No.: 6,298 |
Exactly. I find that not giving karma to someone who has less to do can result in players not going along with plans that don't suit their character's strong suit. In particular, I like to encourage my players to play smart, which sometimes means there won't be combat on a run. If the combat troll goes along on a run, but never gets to do much because they manage to avoid combat, I don't want to punish him because the run went well for a team. Typically, I'll split the karma equally at the end of a run, then give out an MVP and MVC point. The MVC point (Most Valuable Character) goes to the player who's character did something that most spectacularly helped the group: for example, the combat troll successfully holding off a squad of security zones all by himself, while everyone else escapes, and still getting out alive, if barely. The MVP point (Most Valuable Player) goes to the player who did something that most helped the game: inspired roleplaying, a clever plan, an insight into the metaplot, or something like that. Sometimes I have to make a judgement call which is which, but it's usually not too hard. Sometimes the players nominate someone for one of the two, but I don't ask for votes because I don't want to create infighting over the extra karma. I'm not a huge fan of the karma/cash trade, but I'll relent for characters that have much more of a need for one or the other. However, I make them justify how they're converting one into the other. If they want good karma for their cash, they have to justify what their character is doing with it. It needs to agree with the values of the character, for example a shaman's use should agree with their totem, perhaps they donate a focus to a charitable order dedicated to the ideal of the totem. The main rule is that it can't be something that particularly gets the character anything beyond the karma (I don't care how much their totem would want them to buy a new car). Similarly, they should justify how they're converting their good fortune or experience into cash. A regular gambler might hit a run of good luck, someone who owns a business might have an unusually profitable quarter, or a guy who does shakedowns for the mob gets an unusually large bribe or kickback. Part of the benefit of making them justify things is that periodically you got hooks for a run out of it, though it's not something you want to abuse as it makes your players too wary of the system. |
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Feb 4 2005, 11:57 AM
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#15
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Note that the excessive use of Cash for Karma is specifically a mechanic for an amoral campaign (where making money is significantly easier than earning Karma). If we were playing "typical" shadowrun with a more generous Karma distribution, we'd probably limit Cash for Karma to just 1 point per session or none at all. There are sessions that we run that literally only give the survival Karma point, and the runners do everything "right" (in the sense that they are all still alive and still able to perform jobs). It's a different sort of campaign, and not one that is particularly easy to grasp until you try it.
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Feb 4 2005, 12:29 PM
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#16
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The Cash For Karma (and Karma For Cash) optional rules are not specifically for use with the (totally inane) Amoral Campaign optional rules. They are totally seperate options, and a GM can use one option without using the other. The fact that they voth appear in the Advanced Rules section of the Shadowrun Companion does not mean they are in any way related to each other.
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Feb 4 2005, 01:31 PM
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#17
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
I did say EXCESSIVE use of Cash for Karma, rather than the Cash for Karma rules in general. Perhaps I should clarify my language: in an amoral campaign, cash is easier to come by than Karma. Thus, you have to compensate by allowing excessive use of Cash for Karma rules. It gives an incentive for characters to gain and spend cash, as well as sell each other or their contacts out. The two rules have a specific synergy that works well. An Amoral campaign would seem totally inane to one who does not grasp the concept, and it definitely isn't for everyone, as the previous poster implies. |
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Feb 4 2005, 02:51 PM
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#18
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I'm not stupid ... I grasp the concept just fine. I just don't equate earning Karma in Shadowrun to doing Good Deeds™.
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Feb 4 2005, 06:52 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 482 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Austin, TX Member No.: 90 |
We implimented something like this in our Shadowrun games, we called it "Style Points" Players or even the GM could give/nominate other players a Style Point for doing something that is cool/awesome like you described, with a limit of one Style point per cool event. Style points could then later be traded in for Karma points at a 10 to 1 ratio. |
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Feb 4 2005, 06:59 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Since most of my play group are pretty creative people, I give 1 GK for every short story or piece of art done pertaining to the last session/run. In this way, we've chronicled pretty much every element of our runs and they're always fun to revisit.
We also have a "Party Punching Bag" bonus 1 GK that we give to the character who lives through the most physical damage. |
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Feb 4 2005, 07:11 PM
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#21
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Karma has been deducted for OoG offenses, as well. What, you didn't think we were serious? |
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Feb 4 2005, 07:49 PM
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#22
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
And you've missed the point of what an amoral campaign consists of. I'm not saying you are stupid... I'm just saying don't knock it until you've tried it and developed a campaign based on it. |
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Feb 4 2005, 08:05 PM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 19-March 03 From: Central IL Member No.: 4,278 |
Good stuff so far. Right now I use a modded version of the karma buying and selling rules. I let PCs sell karma at 3d6x1000 (can take 10.5 avg), they can sell as much as they want to. I let PCs buy karma at the same rate, but limit it to 1pt per run. This is karma to spend but does not count towards karma pool. I do give points for good backgrounds or cool character pictures, as I think they add a lot to the game.
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Feb 4 2005, 08:06 PM
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#24
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i break the karma awards down per character. for instance, i might say:
4 base challenge +1 killed the most bad guys +1 funny etcetera. the GMs i play under often do this as well. |
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Feb 4 2005, 08:08 PM
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#25
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 11-April 04 From: Netanya, Israel Member No.: 6,232 |
since alot has already been said, i'll just list you how i reward my players:
THE-STANDARD-KARMA (given on any run // individual karma // no team-karma!): Survival: 0-3 karma (3 being "very-very-bad-for-your-health-and-survival-run") Accomplished mission: 0-3 (3 being very complex and hard to achieve) Teamplay: 0-2 Roleplaying: 0-3 (seriously. 3 is almost impossible to get) THE-INTERESTING-KARMA: Ideas: 0-2 Cool Moves (incl. Roleplaying): 0-2 Luck: 0-2 Supportiveness: 0-2 Cooperation: 0-2 Improvisation: 0-2 Taking the Lead: 0-1 THE-BAD-KARMA: (yes. i really do this ...) i substract karma for any character in my group if one of the following things occur: Harassing someone OOC: -0 - -3 Going home in the middle of the run: -0 - -3 Do something IC, the person only knew from OOC: -0 - -3 Being OOC all the time: -0 - -2 Roleplaying bad on purpose (for whatever reason the person might have): -0 - -2 questions are welcome ... |
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