BitBasher's Melee Combat System

BitBasher's Melee Combat System, Insert snappy text here.

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GrinderTheTroll

Feb 5 2005, 12:12 AM

Post #26

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

Actually grinder I specifically avoided that type of system after considering it because it dramatically violated the "decalre actions" methodology of the SR combat turn. You are required to declare your intended action before you do it. In your example the person could never fail a throw because he would know whether or not it would work before he even had to choose to execute it. He would know whether he had met the threshold for a disarm or a throw or such. If he didn't get the right number of sucesses then big whoop, he just does something else instead and automatically suceeds in that too. (assuming of course he wins the round, elsewhise this is moot).

In essence it makes your options in combat nearly risk free.

That was my point. If you get more successes, then you get to call the shots.

Not sure how this violates declaring actions, since you can be knocked down, the positioning is probably the only real violation, but it requires the opponent to stay in "melee range" so even then it's not so severe.

Bottom line for me is, I don't like the idea of skilling up, so spending successes on actions makes much more sense.

BitBasher View Member Profile	Feb 5 2005, 12:18 AM Post #27
Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220	So then you want everyone to have access to every technique from the start?

Ed Simons

Feb 5 2005, 12:24 AM

Post #28

Moving Target

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

Well, the catch is that really there are no martial arts (outside of pure sporting matches that have little real world application) that teach a functional weapon combat without the hand to hand to back it up.

I'm more than happy to make adjustments for that but last I asked this noone could really come up with one.

Actually, most sword based martial arts, whether fencing or Kenjutsu, teach no or minimal unarmed combat techniques, with some early forms of Italian fencing being an exception. Western quarterstaff fighting and most variants of Bojutsu/Jojutsu teach no unarmed techniques. The various types of Western polearm based training as well Naginatajutsu/Sojutsu also did not include an unarmed component. Arnis/Kali/Escrima is weapons based, though advanced students often learned unarmed techniques. Kobujutsu is also weapons based, though somtimes unarmed techniques are taught as well.

BitBasher

Feb 5 2005, 01:23 AM

Post #29

Traumatizing players since 1992

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QUOTE (Ed Simons)

QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 4 2005, 02:15 AM)

Well, the catch is that really there are no martial arts (outside of pure sporting matches that have little real world application) that teach a functional weapon combat without the hand to hand to back it up.

I'm more than happy to make adjustments for that but last I asked this noone could really come up with one.

Actually, most sword based martial arts, whether fencing or Kenjutsu, teach no or minimal unarmed combat techniques, with some early forms of Italian fencing being an exception. Western quarterstaff fighting and most variants of Bojutsu/Jojutsu teach no unarmed techniques. The various types of Western polearm based training as well Naginatajutsu/Sojutsu also did not include an unarmed component. Arnis/Kali/Escrima is weapons based, though advanced students often learned unarmed techniques. Kobujutsu is also weapons based, though somtimes unarmed techniques are taught as well.

It's already bheen corrected if you read my posts above ;)

Aku

Feb 5 2005, 03:11 AM

Post #30

Running, running, running

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QUOTE (Ed Simons)

QUOTE (BitBasher @ Feb 4 2005, 02:15 AM)

Well, the catch is that really there are no martial arts (outside of pure sporting matches that have little real world application) that teach a functional weapon combat without the hand to hand to back it up.

I'm more than happy to make adjustments for that but last I asked this noone could really come up with one.

Actually, most sword based martial arts, whether fencing or Kenjutsu, teach no or minimal unarmed combat techniques, with some early forms of Italian fencing being an exception. Western quarterstaff fighting and most variants of Bojutsu/Jojutsu teach no unarmed techniques. The various types of Western polearm based training as well Naginatajutsu/Sojutsu also did not include an unarmed component. Arnis/Kali/Escrima is weapons based, though advanced students often learned unarmed techniques. Kobujutsu is also weapons based, though somtimes unarmed techniques are taught as well.

however, even a little bit of unarmed martial training can go a LONG ways towards your weapons-based combat. you may already know some defense manuevers that may put your body into a better posistion to strike back, and, as any weapon will be an extension of the human form, evasion and parrying techniques can be similar, and or adapted.

Ed Simons

Feb 5 2005, 04:47 AM

Post #31

Moving Target

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

It's already bheen corrected if you read my posts above ;)

Cool. It looks better than the CC rules, but I'm not sure I'll use it.

Wounded Ronin

Feb 5 2005, 05:28 PM

Post #32

Great Dragon

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

Here it is, some notes folks... This is a wholesale replacement for all hand to hand combat skills.

I deliberately did not name any martial arts, because hand to hand is not a bunch of separate arts when someone uses it. It's an amalgamation of the knoledge you gain from one or more styles. My system is abstract, just like I think SR should be. Name your style whatever the hell you want then buy techniques you feel are appropriate.

There is no longer an edged weapons or a chains skill, cause that's just freaking stupid. Noone goes and learns "edged weapons" but you will learn knife fighting and escrima if it's a part of Kenpo for example. It's all just "Melee Combat", a general skill with specializations only of offensive or defensive. To learn a weapon you just take a technique of "weapon" and pow, you have a skill in that specific weapon, and can use all applicable techniques when using it.

Descriptions of techniques follow below. all of this is playtested and has worked really well. It could use some stramlining but I haven't encountered any real issues.

Feedback is appreciated.

QUOTE

Melee Combat:
A player may choose up to one technique per level of the Melee Combat skill. At character creation each technique costs one build point. During the game a technique is bought by spending karma as if the technique was a specialization with a level equal to the minimum required level for that technique.

Moves Available Per Level:
1: Block
2: Takedown, Position
3: Hold, Weapon
4: Throw, Focus
5: Engagement, Weapon (2)
6: Avoidance, Disarm, Evasion
7: Engagement (2), Weapon (3)
8: Avoidance (2)
9: Engagement (3), Weapon (4)
10: Combo, Disarm (2)
11: Engagement (4), Weapon (5)

Avoidance:
Avoidance a technique in which a person can make his opponent's reach useless. For each point of Avoidance the player purchases, reduce the opponent's reach bonus by one point. This power has a maximum of 2 levels.

Block:
Block allows a character who is defending in a fight to achieve a true tie if the attackers successes are equal to the defenders. In case of a tie no attack is made at all, the attack was blocked. Without this technique all ties go to the attacker, as per SRIII rules.

Combo:
Combo allows any 2 Declared techniques to be applies in the same combat round. This is the <b>only</b> exception to the normal rule that only one Declared technique can be applied in one combat round.

Disarm:
Disarm allows the character to disarm the weapon of his opponent. The player must declare his intent to disarm, then combat proceeds as normal. If the player achieves a number of net successes equal to or greater than 1/2 (round up) of the opponents weapon skill then the opponents weapon is disarmed. Base Damage from a successful disarm is a Str(L) and is staged up only by successes left after the successes necessary for the maneuver. The number of net successes above that determine how far the weapon flies. a good rule of thumb is one meter per success. (Up to GM discretion and circumstances.) If the player won the combat but did not get enough successes to disarm, then no damage is done by either side. If the player lost outright in successes and attempted a disarm, add 2 to the power of the opponents attack.

Disarm and Take:
Mechanically the same as the Disarm Technique immediately above with the major difference that the player that declares and successfully executes this technique ends up holding the opponents weapon at the end of the combat round. In all other cases it is identical to Disarm. Disarm And Take also requires that a character already have Disarm before he can purchase Disarm And Take

Engagement
Engagement allows a character lessen or remove altogether the penalties from fighting multiple opponents while defending only. Each level of Engagement reduces the penalties fighting multiple opponents by one until level 4 is reached, then the player suffers no penalties from multiple opponents no matter how many people he is fighting. (Only so many people can swing on someone at once.) This does NOT cancel the +2 penalty per opponent if a player decides to attack a second opponent offensively during his action.

Evasion:
Evasion allows a player to successfully end combat out of melee range of an opponent if the player first declares his intent to evade and achieves at least one net success in the combat test. If the Evade is successful, no damage is done. If the player achieves the same number of successes as his opponent then resolve damage as normal, but if the player was on the offensive no damage is done. If the player loses the evade test outright the enemy gets to add 1 power to his attack that round. As a prerequisite to purchase Evasion, a player must first posses the skill Position.

Focus:
Focus allows a player to channel his strength for a more physically damaging series of blows. If the Focus is declared before the combat round is rolled, then combat is resolved as normal but if the player wins then his power is reduced by 25% (round down) but the damage done is Physical not Stun and is staged up normally. All other combat effects are handled normally. If a player has Focus and bone lacing that confers a damage bonus then add 1 to the power of the attack.

Hold:
Hold represents one of many types of holds that a person can inflict on another during melee combat, anything from a chicken wing to a full nelson to a choke. A hold incapacitates the victim and is sometimes difficult to escape. In order for a player to successfully execute a hold technique, he first declares the intent to hold then must achieve a number of net successes in combat equal to (Players skill-opponent skill)+2. If successful the player then has his opponent in a hold, and the attack inflicts Str-2(M) damage and is staged up normally by successes left over after the successes necessary to complete the hold. Each combat round a victim is in a hold the damage increases power level of the damage by 1. In order to break a hold the victim must beat the player in an opposed strength roll with a -1 to the victim's target number. If the player wins the combat, but does not achieve enough net successes to perform the hold, then no damage is done. If the opponent wins outright by successes then the power of their attack is increased by 1. If after the hold is successful the player decides to, he or she can forego the +1 damage every round, and inflict no damage after the first round, just continue to incapacitate the victim. If this option is chosen then the player can use one hand for other actions. (Opening a door, Firing a gun, etc.) This effectively allows the use of a victim as a human shield in a gunfight.If used as a shield, the person gains a +1 bonus to the TN to break the hold on their next action.

Position:
Position allows the player to reduce and possible ignore penalties from bad positioning in a fight from circumstances like having the players back against a wall, restricted movement or being prone. If the player declares he is going to use position, he does not suffer positioning penalties that round and if he wins the combat then he has maneuvered himself out the poor position. (He performed a kick up, circled away from the wall, moved to a better footing area, etc) No matter how many net successes the player makes with this technique, he does no damage, the players main concern that round is getting out of a bad spot and not in doing damage. If the player loses the combat round in which he declared a Position maneuver resolve combat like normal.

Takedown:
Take down is a technique designed to put your opponent on the ground one way or another. To execute a successful Take Down the player must first declare that he wishes to attempt a Take Down the the player must achieve a number of net successes equal to or greater than half the opponents quickness. The opponent automatically ends the combat round prone and the damage done by the player is staged normally from the net successes earned <b>after</b> subtracting the successes necessary to pull off the maneuver. If the player wins the combat but does earn the necessary number of successes then no damage is done. If the player outright loses the combat then the remainder of the combat is resolved normally.

Throw:
Throw is similar to the Take Down except for the important fact that the opponent if successfully thrown is sent flying through the air with the greatest of ease. To execute a successful Throw the player must first declare that he wishes to attempt a Throw the the player must achieve a number of net successes equal to or greater than half the opponents body. The opponent automatically ends the combat sailing a number of meters equal to the (Players Strength-Opponents Body)/2 in meters in the players choice of direction and the damage done by the player is staged normally from the net successes earned after subtracting the successes necessary to pull off the maneuver. The base damage if the player does not hit a solid object (Skids along the ground) is Str(L). If the victim does hit a solid object in mid flight the damage is Str(M) or higher depending on what the victim hits. The main advantage of this technique is what the victim may be thrown off of or into. (Or into the path of.)

Weapon:
Weapon is the opportunity for the character to pick up training in a melee weapon as part of the characters fighting style. The first time a character picks up a skill in a weapon he chooses a specific weapon (Katana, Baseball Bat, Chain) and forever after, the character is treated as forever having a skill in that weapon at a level equal to 1 less than his Melee Combat skill. If the Melee combat skill increases through Karma then so does the Weapon technique, because this weapon is now a part of the characters fighting style. If the character later chooses a second Weapon technique then he has the choice of either taking a second separate weapon (which works exactly like the first weapon skill, at a level equal to their Melee Combat skill minus 1), or taking a second Weapon technique in the same weapon he already has, which will now allow him to now treat that weapon skill as equal to his Melee Combat Skill forever.

Replies are welcome, beat it down :)

I think that from a gameplay/game balance perspective, it's just fine. In terms of realism, it's not totally realistic, but the way things are set up makes sense in that these rules are supposed to function in a way that resembles the way that the CC rules work.

For example, setting "combo" apart as a separate skill provides rewards in terms of gameplay and advancement but setting it apart also dosen't necessarily make a lot of sense. In terms of unarmed combat it's pretty basic to use a combination of some kind whenever you attack; poke and retreat is decidedly something that only a beginner would do and is decidedly ineffective.

Or, like, Avoidance, while it makes sense from a game play perspective, dosen't really have a strong real-world equivalent, I don't think. One way to look at it would be as some kind of wing chun trapping game, but that's actually sort of limited in realistic application. For example, I have never, ever, ever seen wing chun trapping work on a boxer. Another way to look at it might be going for a clench or a throw thus jamming an opponent who has longer limbs. But in that case the act of jamming usually occurs simultaneously with an attack. Just like you don't poke and retreat IRL unless you want to get your clock cleaned, if you went and glomped on someone at close range usually you'd want to simultaneously try to throw or elbow them, rather than going about getting close first and then going about how you're actually going to attack as an entirely new thing. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the implied thought/action behind the move is a little bit artificial from a RL perspective, although it works fine for gameplay reasons.

GrinderTheTroll

Feb 8 2005, 05:28 PM

Post #33

Shooting Target

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

So then you want everyone to have access to every technique from the start?

Yes. As I mentioned, you can *try* to do anything, your skill is what determines how well and often to can repeat it.

From my personal experience when I studied martial arts, many of the techniques we learned as beginners where the same ones the Black Belts learned as well. The difference was the degree of timing and detail they could put into the same motion vs. what we could as beginners. Setting someone up for a throw, parries/blocks, positioning, etc. isn't too hard with enough practice and guidance even as a beginner, but effectively making that motion and reaction second-nature requires alot of skill and training.

Without taking combat pool into consideration (TN=4), it would take a Skill=3 to effectively do the Throw Technique (assuming 3 successes), a Skill=6 could probably repeat it often. It's going to be harder against someone of equal skill and pool dice, but would still take a minimum of 3 successes to take your opponent down.

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