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> The Death of Big D, Who is Lithe?
phelious fogg
post Sep 8 2003, 10:13 PM
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So a long time ago I was reading about Burnout and Ryan Mercury and all that wonderful Jazz.. My question deals with the free Spirit Lithe. I got the feeling that Lithe was the spirit of Big D minus the physical form. Aparently I havent seen a topic on it, So I was curious what the deal was with him.
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HMHVV Hunter
post Sep 8 2003, 10:19 PM
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Along those same lines:

I heard that the novel "Headhunter" had something to do with D's death, but I couldn't get through it (because I think Mel Odom's a lousy writer).

So what exactly happened that had anything to do with his death in that novel?
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Peter Pan
post Sep 8 2003, 10:19 PM
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@ Frog:

no idea, I found the idea that a great dragon would a) be elected by human electorate in contravention of millions of years of evolutionary instinct, and b) then somehow killed to be so absurd that it's one of the major reasons I won't switch from SR2 to SR3
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Adam
post Sep 8 2003, 10:22 PM
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*blinks* You can play with SR3 rules and not use the SR3 timeline. . .

[And your analysis of the events show that you actually don't have a clear view of what caused Dunkelzahn's death.]
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BitBasher
post Sep 8 2003, 10:22 PM
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Well Peter then you can blame your fellow SR players, becayse Dunkie won via ballots that were in previous sourcebooks, and he was elected by your fellow shadowrun players.

Second, Dunkie was not killed like you seem to imply, but I won't post spoilers, there are many others here that will. ;)
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phelious fogg
post Sep 8 2003, 10:24 PM
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Its Fogg not Frog.. :-)
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Lucyfersam
post Sep 8 2003, 10:25 PM
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For anyone who hasn't read the Dragon Heart Saga, the following is a spoiler.

The spirit you are thinking of is names Lethe (after the river), not Lithe. It is indeed the spirit of Dunklezahn. For a complete story on him read the Dragon Heart Saga.
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phelious fogg
post Sep 8 2003, 10:31 PM
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Okay thats what I thought, sorry for the misspelling of Lethe..
Thank you muchly
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Peter Pan
post Sep 8 2003, 10:40 PM
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@ Adam:

QUOTE
*blinks* You can play with SR3 rules and not use the SR3 timeline. . .


sure... where some hobo punk with a cheap pawn shop pistol is able to beat a delta-clinic cyber-zombie at iniative ?

QUOTE
[And your analysis of the events show that you actually don't have a clear view of what caused Dunkelzahn's death.]


ummm... FASA was trying to back itself out of the hole it created for itself when it let the fans vote for the Big D ? :D

@ Bitbasher:

QUOTE
Well Peter then you can blame your fellow SR players, becayse Dunkie won via ballots that were in previous sourcebooks, and he was elected by your fellow shadowrun players.


ok, well you're all idiots !!! :D

any chimp that would vote a dragon to office would be removed from the gene pool long before we had the agricultural revolution, let alone the Awakening...

QUOTE
Second, Dunkie was not killed like you seem to imply, but I won't post spoilers, there are many others here that will. 


ok, I'm just going off of the SR3 book I browsed through in the shop... my response to the Big D being elected was a resounding "WTF ???"

if you want, you can send my spoilers by a private message

fyi- above and beyond the Big D thing, I simply have not seen any compelling reason to spend my hard earned nuyen to replace my mountain of SR2 stuff with a mountain of SR3 stuff

@ Fogg:

QUOTE
Its Fogg not Frog.. 


my apologies
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BitBasher
post Sep 8 2003, 11:07 PM
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QUOTE
sure... where some hobo punk with a cheap pawn shop pistol is able to beat a delta-clinic cyber-zombie at iniative ?
that cannot happen in 3rd edition any more than it could happen in 2nd. The only difference is that after the Zombit gets his first action, the hobo gets his first action, which will be to bleed to death or wonder why the light at the end of the tunnel is kind of bluish. :D
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Boondocker
post Sep 8 2003, 11:08 PM
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The SR3 books are better, though. :|
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TinkerGnome
post Sep 8 2003, 11:10 PM
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QUOTE (Lucyfersam)
... the following is a spoiler.

Spoiler tag!
Spoiler tag!
We love you!

Spoiler tag!
Spoiler tag!
They are
[ Spoiler ]
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AK404
post Sep 8 2003, 11:32 PM
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Gee, if only one event shook you up that badly, let it be known that Dunky was elected during the course of SR2. SR3 starts in 2060, years after his death. As for the "why would anyone vote for a great dragon?" question, it really boils down to two things: a) the other candidates just weren't up to snuff. Personally, the idea of the other big players winning the 2057 election would've seemed like a lose-lose situation to me. Just about every one of them had skeletons in the closet, it's just that Dunkie's bones had nothing to do with the Sixth World (or couldn't be proven, take your pick). b) well, it's Dunkelzahn. It really never mattered that he was a great dragon or that he had thousands of years of experience with humanity (or the other stuff), it was that he was the best possible candidate for President, and admittedly (coming back to the great dragon thing), the possibility of a President who could out-think, outfox, and outmanuever any of the heads of the megacorporations (with Knight and Lofwyr being distinct maybes) is a pleasing one. I mean, if it was Lofwyr or Lung or Aden, that's be another thing, but well...Dunky had some qualities that could be considered important for a great dragon to have.

Anyway, poo-pooing a game system just because one event (one that has consequences that don't even affect your average runner like RA:S or the fall of Fuchi might) rubs you the wrong way is makes no sense, since the system has absolutely nothing to do with the event timeline. Granted the only problem I have is trying to manage a 2053-2063 SR campaign and juggling the technological advances of the Matrix at the same time, so that a decker would have to adjust from the SR1 matrix all the way up to the SR3 standard, but that is neither here nor there.

Anyway, as to that Lethe/Dunkelzahn connection, yes, it's already been answered. Admittedly, I can't find that third book anywhere, but as far as I understand the situation, that's the gist of it.
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Ancient History
post Sep 8 2003, 11:37 PM
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My site isnae required reading or anything for those who refuse or cannot by the books, but it wouldn't kill some of you to at least glance at it. I made huge lists of the sourcebooks and novels and shit for a reason, y'know?
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Talia Invierno
post Sep 8 2003, 11:49 PM
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Or (c ) he (probably) wouldn't eat you if you don't vote for him (poor etiquette, don't you know), but you're not at all sure about that Yeats fellow ...
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Abstruse
post Sep 9 2003, 12:51 AM
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I personally find it more shocking that GW Bush was elected than Dunkelzahn, but that just opens up the can of worms that is politics...

Yeah, FASA was trying to drag themselves out of the corner they painted themselves in...suuuure. Okay, let's make the presidential candidates our players get to choose from Some Dude We've Never Heard Of, Some Dude We've Never Heard Of 2, Some Chick We've Never Heard Of, and a Great Dragon that's been a major poster in two sourcebooks, a major subject of many bits of fiction in the game world, and a well-liked character. Gee, I wonder if FASA had any idea in advance who would win...you know, with the whole bit of DAMN NEAR EVERY PLOTLINE FOLLOWING drawing DIRECTLY from Big D's death.

Bakayaro!!

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aeprod
post Sep 9 2003, 03:04 AM
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Can of worms open...

QUOTE
  I personally find it more shocking that GW Bush was elected than Dunkelzahn, but that just opens up the can of worms that is politics...


GW Bush was NOT elected...he was appointed by the Supreme Court, who vastly overstepped their constitutional and legal bounds...to provide us with the grandson of America's biggest Nazi supporter and an heir to a huge arms manufacturing and trade empire that seems quite happy to keep our nation in perpetual war.

Business is war, the Japanese say. War is business, the Bush clan might say.

At least the Big D got his square, if not fair.
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Connor
post Sep 9 2003, 03:09 AM
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This is getting way off topic and should definately belong in the Lounge, but...

The Supreme Court did not appoint any president. He was elected in a proper election and won fair and square. The Florida State Supreme Court told Gore that they coudln't go changing the rules of the election after the fact and besides none of the official or unofficial recounts of the Florida votes ever put Gore in the lead in that state, including the ones that Gore paid for.

If you people can't understand how the electoral college and the elections sytem in the country work you might want to pick up a civics book.

And just so you know, I'm not a supporter of Bush or the Republican party in any way.
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FlakJacket
post Sep 9 2003, 03:13 AM
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This again? Christ would people get over it and stop whining? I mean, if Gore had managed to just carry his home state all of that would have been moot IIRC.
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Ancient History
post Sep 9 2003, 03:13 AM
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Translation: If Bush bought anybody, it was the Electoral College. our votes don't actually mean anything. Even if Gore had gotten 15,000 more votes in Florida, he'd still have lost.
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phelious fogg
post Sep 9 2003, 03:27 AM
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@ Ancient History
I had read through your geocities site before posting my question. I didnt find anything about Lethe on them, I even checked it again after I found out I had spelled it wrong.

I guess another question might be what Lethe and Burnout are upto these days... I know they are probably still sitting on the metaplanes, but you know itd be neat if someone went to talk to the Big D and see whats happening
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Peter Pan
post Sep 9 2003, 03:32 AM
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@ Bit Basher

QUOTE
that cannot happen in 3rd edition any more than it could happen in 2nd. The only difference is that after the Zombit gets his first action, the hobo gets his first action, which will be to bleed to death or wonder why the light at the end of the tunnel is kind of bluish. 


my campaign has certain high-level NPCs, the purpose of which is to put the fear of God into the PCs... if they think they can pick a fight with him and get in a few lucky shots (as they could with SR3 rules), instead of being wiped out before they can blink an eye (as they would in SR2 rules), it fundamentally alters the game balance in a way I do not want... SR2 rules make more sense in terms of realism, if one accepts iniative-enhancing cyberware as realistic...

@ Boondocker:

QUOTE
The SR3 books are better, though. 


having read both Man and Machine (SR3), Cybertechnology (SR2) and Shadowtechnolgoy (SR2), and attempting to read the SR3 mainbook, I'd have to disagree

@ AK404:

QUOTE
Gee, if only one event shook you up that badly, let it be known that Dunky was elected during the course of SR2


I know this, I ignore it in all of the later SR2 books I have (e.g. Cyberpirates)

QUOTE
Anyway, poo-pooing a game system just because one event (one that has consequences that don't even affect your average runner like RA:S or the fall of Fuchi might) rubs you the wrong way is makes no sense,


it's not just Big D, or the iniative rules... I have a pile of SR2 books, I am the 4th GM, running the 7th campaign of a long running meta-campaign that happens to have started off using SR2 and deviated from there... as such, I see no point in spending my :nuyen: on SR3...

I've taken pieces of SR3 that I like ( Wuxing, the exodus of Yamatetsu, plus the vauge notion that "bad shit happened in Chicago" ), ignored the parts of SR3 that I think are bulldrek ( Big D being elected and then killed ), or contradict established meta-campaign material I inherited from the previous GMs and see no reason to change (e.g. Fuchi did not break up, the Arcology is doing just fine, and Zurich Orbital is a data haven, not the seat of a Corporate Court, which does not exist in my campaign ) and use SR2 as my rule-base

Taking Fuchi as an example, the previous GMs had established some pretty nifty things about it ( a quasi AI tied to a network of stealth recon drones monitoring everything going on in Seattle ) that I wanted to keep... and I saw no reason why to sacrifice that to have Cross or Novatech, which frankly didn't seem all that interesting. Wuxing I added because it was interesting, the Yamatetsu exodus I accepted as cannonical for my campaign because it made Yamatetsu a lot more interesting

I think it violates the entire spirit of RPGing for people to insist the GM must take the cannon and use it without altering to his tastes or needs, or accept the cannon from an edition he doesn't have the time/money/inclination to purchase

I'd post the URL to my webpage for our meta-campaign, but as the game is still on-going and contains spoilers for my players, we can't make it public access at this point

@ History:

QUOTE
My site isnae required reading or anything for those who refuse or cannot by the books, but it wouldn't kill some of you to at least glance at it. I made huge lists of the sourcebooks and novels and shit for a reason, y'know?


until now i had no knowledge of said webpage, nor do I have the budget to buy my sourcebooks than I already have, nor the time or inclination to read the novels

@ Abtruse:

QUOTE
I personally find it more shocking that GW Bush was elected than Dunkelzahn, but that just opens up the can of worms that is politics...


certainly the Big D would be a better man... err.. whatever... for the job... but it just violates all sense of logic, legal ( even assuming a non-awakened country like UCAS is enlightened enough to give dragons citizenships, he's not exactly native-born is he ? ) and biological ( the standard prey response to a predator is fight or flight, not voting for the guy )

QUOTE
Yeah, FASA was trying to drag themselves out of the corner they painted themselves in...suuuure.


ok, that was a flipant remark on my part, your point is well taken... FASA rigged the vote and the fans fell into line like sheep to the dragon's cave, it still doesn't make logical sense to me that a dragon could a) legally stand for the office or b) would get voted by an electorate that has no real reason knowing if Big D is a good dragon or just another Lofwyr under that friendly persona

I'll say it again: no chimp that would vote for a dragon would make it through the gene pool to the agricultural revolution

QUOTE
The Annoyed One


I'm sorry if I contributed to your annoyance
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booklord
post Sep 9 2003, 03:55 AM
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The Terminator is about to be elected govenor of California
.....and you've got a problem with Dunklezahn being elected not being realistic?

I buy that the public elected Dunklezahn. I don't buy that the election was anything approaching close.

As to Bush.... No I refuse to be drawn into that argument.
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Peter Pan
post Sep 9 2003, 04:06 AM
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QUOTE (booklord)
The Terminator is about to be elected govenor of California
.....and you've got a problem with Dunklezahn being elected not being realistic?


their is a huge difference between intra-species absurdities like Dubya getting to be POTUS and Arnold to be Governator (if that indeed happens) and dragon food electing a dragon to be their leader

besides truth is supposed to be stranger than fiction.... Arnold running to be governor is truth... Shadowrun, believe it or not, is fiction...

plus, in terms of the Governator thing, we're talking about California here...
when Heaven's Gate happened you didn't exactly see people saying "this sort of thing never happens here" did you ?

besides, last I checked California was under Japanese Imperial occupation and not part of UCAS :D

and even if you discount that, I have to think that any would be Oswald with a SAM would be toasted... buttered... spread with some nice jam... and then eaten... extra crispy... :D

I see no reason why I should be obligated to use any part of SR cannon in my game that does not suit my personal tastes, and Big D is an example of this par excellence
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phelious fogg
post Sep 9 2003, 04:13 AM
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@Peter Pan

Yeah using cannon can be a pain in the petunias... I dont really use cannon for much of anything storywise since politics dont affect any players I have had directly.

@Everyone
In any case I did start this thread as a question about Lethe, a character in a book. Not about the plausability of Big D being President, or about SR2 vs SR3. No point in having a heated argument about something that isnt really important. I am sorry if bringing up this topic brought that up. So if you have anything to discuss ON TOPIC, please do. I really would like peoples guesses as to whats happning with Lethe and Burnout now that its several years down the line. I gotta wonder if any of the other greats went to the metaplanes to talk to the Big D after the bridge was shattered.

Anyways I hope we can stay ON TOPIC please.

(This means no arguing over real or fantasy world politics.)
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