 Dealing with Ruthenium |
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 Feb 5 2005, 05:38 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053  |
I'm hoping someone can help me out with this most irritating substance.
I've got nothing against stealth characters getting huge bonuses from a burglar's tux, but frankly, ruthenium polymer bodysuits and cloaks are just abusable. Hitting a character who constantly uses a ruthi-suit is nigh-on-impossible, and actually tailoring an encounter to challenge him or her seriously restricts a GM's options. While the cost is not negligable, there is a horrible possibility that every Resource A streetsam can show up to a new game completely invisible, there's no way to stop them, they throw their entire combat pools into shots, and are untouchably broken. There is one particular character (Hi Ranneko!), a sniper/infiltrator who greatly irritates me in that he cannot be seen by most enemies, and happily snipes away even when in the middle of a combat, taking aim and making fifteen dice sport rifle shots with a TN of 2, killing ANYTHING thrown against him. That thing took out a boat in one shot, he staged the damage up so high with successes it took way-more-than-Deadly damage despite having TN2 to soak (I bet they'd be regretting not having *slightly* heavier armour, if they weren't so dead). Even mooks with thermo or ultrasound get +4 against him, seriously reducing the number of successes from any attack. Only astrally perceiving foes can really do much, and manaballing the team and killing half of them falls under what I would consider "Bad GM form" just as far as "grenading all the runners". I have already said they can't have visibility TN modifiers above +8 (M&M says +12 from the suit), as that's the amount from total invisibility or blind fire. Of course, the more scanners, the faster you can go without dropping below that +8. Arguments then arise over whether this makes the thermographic and ultrasound TNs +6 or +4. So, what methods can people think of for handling this character and other transparent abuses (pun very intended)? I have a few ideas, most of which my players probably will not like, but they're logical enough, they should get the idea... 1) Simply boosting the availability of ruthenium and/or the image scanners to 12-15. This is, of course, a bandaid option, they'll acquire them eventually, but it may stave off the worst abuses. 2) Ruling that the modifiers, as a particularly pedantic look at the book may reveal, apply to perception tests only, not firearms tests, but this flies in the face of the logic that it is HARD to hit someone who you can't really see. 3) Houseruling out the image scanners and replacing them with a rating-based scanner package, limiting starting characters to +6 in any case, again a mostly bandaid measure. 4) "No, you buggers just can't have the bloody stuff. Go abuse Dikote instead!" 5) Hard-capping the bonus at +4, IE: No additional scanners. 6) Tailoring all my runs to have some method of defeating ruthenium (Drones, loads of magically active foes, hell, even ink grenades), thus devaluing it and having players dislike me (Although the ink grenades thing is a cool idea. *ponder*). I'm still trying to think of a better way of handling this, what do people use in their games? Any suggestions would be appreciated. |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:47 AM
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#2
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
This is completely wrong. Ruth suits really are not that great. They are expensive to maintain, prohibitively expensive to maintain as combat equipment, and extraordinarily useless against even the lowest grade magical opposition. Against any form of nonvisual scanning, the suit is useful but hardly perfect. If you need to engage an objective invisibly, even the potential for thermal microcams is enough to hose you. They certainly have their uses, and a creative player can make them invaluable, but an intelligent player will also be constantly aware of their significan drawbacks. And, really, you've got it all backwards. Street sams are pretty much never the game-breaking nightmare. An adept (especially an adept up to date with the ludicrous options available to him in SOTA2064) or a mage in one of these is far worse. |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:56 AM
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#3
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
I don't see that there's really a problem here. Abuse the system. The system comes back at you. I like to fall back on the NPC Family Rule. The NPC's have families. If they're getting slaughtered, and have the means to kill the enemy, and hence save their skins, they'll utilize those means so that they can go home that day and kiss their wife and hug their daughters. Even if the methods are considered "Bad GM Form", it is also bad GM form if the enemies have the means to win, (like that astrally percieving mage with manaball, hell you can just make it bolt and ice just the player with the Ruthie gear if you want), and doggedly persist trying to shoot a guy they can't see. NPC's are people too, and unless their meant to be dumb NPC's (a perfectly plausible occurance), if they can't just shoot the guy, they will try and think of other options. I think it's "Bad Player Form" to abuse things like Ruthenium Suits, because in our experience with it, it takes away the fun from everybody else (as does any overly-power-gaming character). Sure, if you need it for the run, cool. If you're going to wear it everywhere to be a 6 year-old smart ass, "Slot Off, Frag Face". |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:58 AM
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#4
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Arethusa makes a lot of good points.
Also, I agree that not all runs and encounters should have to be tailored to one pain-in-the-ass player. "Sometimes, drones and mages are just not available." |
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Feb 5 2005, 06:02 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 5-February 05 Member No.: 7,053 |
How is a suit high maintenance? The cost of purchasing battery packs is negligable to most runners, and if you don't get shot, you can hardly tear it.
Yes, it is useless against astrally perceiving enemies, but I try to stick to the "Magic is rare" line, characters are unlikely to encounter more than about three magical opponents in a run, and in that case they have a distressing tendency to geek him or her before they can get more than two spells off.
+4 to TNs is hardly a guaranteed hose, the number of successes even a top of the line gunbunny is going to get from a TN6 shot (And even that's sans-cover) are small enough that dodging isn't that hard (Unless combat pool has already been used, then soaking is still easier than usual).
I don't want to get into an argument about what archetype can be most easily broken, IMHO, all of them are abusable given enough effort. |
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Feb 5 2005, 06:05 AM
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#6
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
If you have an extraordinary problem with mages getting geeked off too quickly, just have the mage send his horde of bound elementals to protect <insert whatever needs protecting here> from the safety of his condo halfway accross town.
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Feb 5 2005, 06:16 AM
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#7
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Its VERY important to remember that ruthenium is not invisibility. The stuff only helps you from being noticed. The desciption always says perceiving and detecting. Once you are noticed, you have to run away and hide to disappear again. It doesn not give "Visibility" modifiers.
It is almost useless in combat. You have to move very slowly so that the ruthenium can keep up with the changing environment. You can screw this up royally real real fast. 1.) Flash Packs/ Flash grenades make rutheium go nuts. 2.) Blowing smoke. 3.) Being between fast moving objects and someone trying to see you. Rutheium can't keep with with normal street traffic. 4.) Shooting while wearing it. The muzzle flash and loud noise kinda give you away. 5.) Cloaks blow around in high wind and wearing a body suit leaves you without significant armor. 6.) Rain pretty much screws you. It might start raining an awful lot in Seattle. There are more but this covers most of it. Its designed to help infiltrators, not make combat monsters. If it worked like it did in GitS maybe, but it doesn't. |
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Feb 5 2005, 06:30 AM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 158 Joined: 19-March 03 From: Central IL Member No.: 4,278 |
This has been a bit annoying in some of the games I have ran in the past. I try to focus on keeping mages in check and in the end this is a good equalizer for mundanes. A F1 invis spell with a good number of successes is just as bad!
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Feb 5 2005, 06:33 AM
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#9
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
If the environment is hostile, one can safely assume that it's hard to keep the suit suitably undamaged. In combat, simply because you soaked a shot down to not taking a wound doesn't mean you weren't hit. All it means is you weren't sufficiently injured to register on the would modifier scale. A gash will damage the suit. A grazing hit will damage the suit. Peppering with shrapnel will damage the suit. Any impact that does not penetrate armor will still have penetrated the suit. You get the idea. They can be used in combat, but they're not something I'd take to war. They're highly specialized equipment, and you need to understand teh strengths and weaknesses of the suit to use it properly.
But magic isn't rare enough. It's expensive and limiting (no matter how flexible you are with your design, you cannot carry and manage a normal loadout with one) equipment, so you don't just drag it out for everything. When you do use it, you use it because you do not want to be seen, and in most cases, cannot in any way afford to exist. When the stakes are the high, magic being rare just isn't good enough.
See above. When you need to be a ghost, +4-6 is nowhere near enough.
Of course they are. But you're wrong in thinking they're equally abusable. Adepts haven never been as broken, and specifically in the case of the ruth suit, its primary downsides are lack of magical protection— something a mage or perception-able adept are infinitely more able to adapt to than any mundane.
Where the hell are you getting this?
While I agree with some of this, I do find issue with a lot of it: 1. Nowhere in canon have I ever seen anything that says flash packs and grenades do anything to it other than momentarily making obvious that there's something in the way (you'll still cast a shadow, etc), but since everyone else will be at the time too busy being blind, it doesn't much matter. 2. If you're covered in smoke, it doesn't matter if you're invisible or not; no one's going to be seeing you since you're surrounded by smoke. 4. Shooting while wearing it will be a disadvantage, yes, but add in suppressors (maybe brass catchers) and sufficiently hectic combat environment (and when is combat not?) and you can do reasonably well. What's really a pain is getting the gun coated in the first place, not to mention repairing the suit after combat. 5. The suit doesn't have to. Just tailor it to fit FFBA and some armored pants, or something. It'll give you less than normal, yes, but it doesn't have to be debilitating. Just more expensive. |
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Feb 5 2005, 07:59 AM
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#10
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
There are several 'mundane' things that will defeat the suit;
1 Shadows The suited person still casts a shadow, at night with alot of direct (i.e. spot) lighting, a cast shadow can be very easy to see. 2 Weather The suit does not really 'defeat' things like rain, snow, standing in water, any tracks you leave, etc 3 Minor damage, the suit can be damaged by area of effect attacks like grenades, is the suit is caught in a blast, it should be damaged. 4 Smell Dogs and other animals that rely on smell have no trouble detecting this guy. 5 Hearing If he is shooting at you, you can use your spatial recognizer cyberware to figure out the general area, then fire a grenade, shine a light, send in the dogs, or whatever. 6 Mud, dust, etc The suit can be covered in dust, paint, blood, flour, mud, etc. |
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Feb 5 2005, 08:21 AM
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#11
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Read the decription. The rules for perception checks are singular. Once an object is noticed, you don't need to keep looking for it. Its just camoflauge on steroids. Like regular camo, once the person is spotted and your mind puts together the shape of a person, you don't lose them magically every few seconds. 2nd paragraph. "When activated, the target numbers needed to perceive such a cloaked object are increased by 4. For each extra scanner beyond four, add 1 to the final target number for detection." SR3 pg 231. "A single success on a Perception Test indicates that someone has noticed something." 1 success = something is there. No further information is required to open fire. No where in the decription do the words "Visibility Modifier" appear. It doesn't inflict any modifiers after the target has been detected. Before that time, you still get the +8 blind fire modifier. 1.) A flash pack strobes. The ruthenium can't work that fast. Look at the out of snyc target. This would lower the target number for the perception test. 2.) When you watch smoke blow around an invisible pillar or watch as a person shaped hole cuts through it............ 4.) During a full on assualt its not unreasonable not to notice a person who isn't rutheium covered. First few shots or a lone person away from the crowd, again, it will lower the target number. |
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Feb 5 2005, 01:19 PM
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#12
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Regular Camo gives a +2 TN Modifier vs. Ranged attacks if the character is moving due to breaking up the profile of the character against his/her surroundings. I'd assume Ruthenium would do something similar (less for fast moving characters), but that's nowhere near the +8 for Blind Fire. Of course, the attacker would have detect the character using a Perception test (Simple Action) before they could nullify Blind Fire modifiers against Ruthenium.
According to canon, Ruthenium Polymers do not add a Ranged attack penalty. Since it requires the person to move relatively slowly (less than 6 meters a combat turn, walking distance for most characters) or to stand still, one could argue that the attacker would have either the stationary target bonus or only the penalty against walking targets. I'd like to know how a Sport Rifle took down a boat. Most boats have enough bulwark and hull to nullify non-naval damage completely. Was this a small rowboat? |
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Feb 5 2005, 01:27 PM
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#13
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Oh, and three more ways to deal with Ruthenium Polymer stealth junkies:
1) Dual-natured Paracritters. 2) Grenades don't care about line of sight 3) Suppressive Fire (p107 Cannon Companion) doesn't care about visibility modifiers. Actually, Suppressive Fire is a great equalizer against all sorts of penalties (visibility, recoil, and movement, specifically). It allows common security guards to use full-auto effectively (especially if your guard are coordinating their attacks). |
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Feb 5 2005, 02:21 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 349 Joined: 16-January 05 Member No.: 6,984 |
Yes, it was a very small boat, not a rowboat (since it had an outboard motor), but it was a small boat. And the rifle was using Ex ammo (not that that actually ended up making much of a difference after the halving and reduction of armour and the like). In that combat the wearing of ruthenium didn't actually make a difference, because the other people were too far out to see him in any case really, hence the ability to use combat pool on the shot rather than saving it for dodging. |
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Feb 5 2005, 02:37 PM
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#15
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
Well, that doesn't sound nearly as impressive. If it was a Light Merchantman or a Trawler, I'd question how the weapon caused damage in the first place (since they both have a Hull rating of 2), but if it was the size of a rowboat or swamp boat (less than 100 metric tons), then it would be the equivalent of taking out a VW Electro or Nissan Jackrabbit. |
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Feb 5 2005, 02:41 PM
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#16
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Target Group: Members Posts: 78 Joined: 1-October 03 Member No.: 5,668 |
I also believe we had a thread about how to deal with magical invisibility not too long ago. Some of the ideas there would also work for ruthenium.
Another thing to consider is that your runners are probably not the only people with enough money and brains to figure out the tactical advantages to ruthenuim. If all the other good runners are using it as well, you can bet your last Nuyen that the Megas are going to have specific defenses for it. Arming all of their security personnel with splash grenades filled with paint is a very inexpensive solution. The grenades themselves would be very cheap, and no new training is really required. Sure, the corp. will need to clean paint the next day, but that’s still cheaper than whatever it is the runners came to do. Also, should the runner still survive, his suit is ruined and he now has to purchase another one. That should cut down on how often they bring the ruthenium out of the closet. Sentry guns/drones. Granted, they still have a penalty to spot the runner, but it is much smaller than for a metahuman. Full auto suppressive fire from a HVAR will ruin anyone’s day. Keep in mind that many types of animals track using smell and sound and don’t really care if they can see someone to know that they are there. If the critter barks/makes noise, security will now be alerted that someone it there. If the critter comes to investigate and the team has to kill it, security will have a critter missing and know that someone is there. Corp security will also start using it. It’s definitely too expensive for your average security slug, but any HTR team worth its salt will have it, along with all of the SOTA means of defeating it. |
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Feb 5 2005, 02:43 PM
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#17
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Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,944 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920 |
If you say so. I usually assume if you have LOS, so do they. |
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Feb 5 2005, 03:23 PM
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#18
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Someone isn't a sailor ;) Note the term "boat". Boats are small and never use the naval damage rules. Ships, as Shadowrun defines them, start at about a hundred tons. ~J |
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Feb 5 2005, 04:46 PM
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#19
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
So Submarines, which most definitely are classified as boats in real life, do not use the Naval rules?
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Feb 5 2005, 05:02 PM
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#20
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
The only two Naval-rules using subs are nuclear subs with total loads of over 2,500,000 kilos not counting the weight of the vessel itself.
~J |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:06 PM
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#21
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Seriously? (It really was an honest question, as I haven't read the Naval rules for quite a while)
So all other subs can be taken out with a hold-out pistol packing AV ammo? :eek: |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:09 PM
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#22
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
No, because all other subs are underwater where that hold-out is losing Power at a rate of -1/meter :P
Seriously, though, no. The only sub you shouldn't be able to do that to (not a minisub, not a sea sled) is a patrol submarine with an Armor of 9. Hold-out with Power 4 will halve that, but will still be bounced. Other than that, the fact that a hold-out can use AV ammo is a flaw in the rules everywhere, not just for subs :P ~J |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:15 PM
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#23
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I admit I was being a little facetious. ;)
Per canon though, a light pistol (with AV ammo) could destroy a Patrol Submarine if it were to surface? That in itself is pretty silly. Is there any rationale given for subs not to be covered under Naval rules? |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:23 PM
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#24
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,006 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Ok, I'm going to check the errata, because whoever wrote said patrol sub was drunk. 85 basic living amenities in a Body 4 vehicle (for reference, that's about the size of an SUV or van).
Edit: Praise be! Errata says change Body and Armor to Hull and Bullwark. That gives us a minimum naval sub size of ~170,000 kilos before vessel mass. ~J |
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Feb 5 2005, 05:30 PM
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#25
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
I'm not trying to start another "Shadowrun should go D20" argument here, because I don't agree with that. However, in Star Wars D20 there's something called Damage Reduction that keeps such ridiculous things from happening (so that, say, a blaster pistol can't down an X-Wing fighter). Maybe Shadowrun could benefit by some house rules tweaking for such things? |
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