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Adept Powers of SOTA 2064, Way to go, authors, you pooched mundanes

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Deacon

Feb 7 2005, 11:53 AM

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This is what my GM had to say about the adept powers in SOTA 2064. I agree with a lot of what he says, and quite frankly, I think the ball was dropped with this book.

I'm posting this because he says very eloquently what most of my opinions are.

QUOTE

Originally posted at Shadowrun Denver MUSH:
I'd just like to say before I go about tearing this book up - and by god, am I going to tear it up - that I am not a magic hater. I actually like magic. There are many things about the magic system I enjoy. But in many ways, I feel like the game is getting away from what it was supposed to be, especially with regards to Physical Adepts, which this book really seems to concentrate on.

Nor am I attacking [...], or anyone else who likes this book. I am merely attacking the ideas of the writers, who I think have been taking large hits off of illegal substances.

Also, these are only my opinions. Even if I don't like something, I may end up approving it for play if the rest of staff feels differently, as long as it doesn't seem like it's going to break the game.

I feel like a lot of these powers are fads. The writers have a specific character concept in mind, and created specific powers to fit that specific concept. In my mind, that is the worst way to come up with powers. Powers should be general, balanced, and fit the concept of the physical adept. I have serious, serious issues with all the crap in this book dedicated to making Adepts the new Fixers, or the new Mage Helper, or the new Animal Controller. Bull. Shit. On to specifics.

Aid Spell: There's no limit on this power on how many dice the mage can actually use, like with Spell Pool and Sorcery Skill. A chargen level adept could effectively act as a Force 6 focus for all of a mage's spells, even to a Mage with Sorcery 1.

Animal Empathy: Not too bad - other than the very specific nature of the power. There are no 'animal handling' rules, not even in Critters. Too specific to be useful. Also seems like part of a PC-animal fad. Fads make poor powers.

Commanding Voice: And this one states the target either carries out the command, or pauses in indecision (GM call) - GM call based on what? If the command made sense? Flip of a coin? If they feel like it?

Cool Resolve: Does 'manipulated' mean you can also use this in Negotiation tests when people are trying to manipulate you to a lower price? And it doesn't protect against the Fear or Influence power of critters (something I could actually see as being useful).

Deep Rooting: I suppose if we were using maps and miniatures for combat, this would be a good power. Sort of. Most of the things you'd want to use this power have so many other problems (weight of weapon, weight of ammo, legality), the recoil is the least of your worries.

Eidetic Sense Memory: Ever wanted to use /log as a justification for knowing something? This would be it. Vaguely acceptable, though it would be nice to see an 'average time' for reading a book, and just how much faster this makes it.

Elemental Strike: Let's go over a couple of these, shall we? Blast: Characters struck with this effect are subject to Knockdown associated with Melee combat. Uhm... Fire: Did you know that if you set someone on fire in melee combat, their ammo/grenades may go off while you're standing right next to them? Ice: Any moving vehicle must immediately make a crash test. There's something for all the people wanting to fuck with vehicles with melee attacks. There's more, but at least half of them are so vague as to be useless.

Empathic Healing: [FanPro] forgot to add in Bio Index, there. Oops. I'm really not sure where I stand on this one. Compared to, say, a Heal spell, or even a little quick First Aid, it doesn't seem all that useful. Where you had one wounded person, now you have two, slightly lesser wounded people.

Empathic Reading: So if you're telling a lie, you roll Negotiation to see if people catch you? Hm. New one on me. Wouldn't that mean that most Negotiations get -1 TN per level, then, such as negotiating price down? I sense much bickering with this power.

Enhanced Balance: This could be acceptable - if it weren't for the fact that you can already buy a -2 to balance, as 'any sense provided by cyberware can be provided by Improved Sense'. Including Balance Augmentation (senseware), which gives -2 to all rolls involving balance and Knockdown.

Enthralling Performance: An interesting power for the occasional NPC to make them more unique, perhaps. Worthy of its own entry? Uhm. No. Not something I can see them having.

Facial Sculpt: I don't know. This power seems a little... off. I can't put my finger on a reason, specifically. Maybe it just reminds me of all those B-rated horror movies.

Gliding: If it's considered a Difficult maneuver, that makes it TN 6-7! What do you mean, the GM determines the TN? This effect always seemed highly cheesy to me in the movies - it seems no less cheesy here.

Improved Ability: Well, thank god they didn't include Technical skills. But they did include Social Skills. What with all the Negotiation modifiers so far, Fixers are now an Adept class. Mundanes won't be able to compete, period. Never have I seen a better example of marginalization. Doom and gloom aside, I can see many PC fixers retiring and going back into chargen to become Adepts.

Inertial Strike: So... subtract a damage level, but add a success needed. Vaguely useful, I suppose. Seems rather limited, though. I would've done this simply as an increase in the TN to resist it.

Iron Guts: Another version of cyber Ingested Filters! The powers that don't seem useless or outrageously overpowered all seem like versions of cyberware. I hate that. :)

Iron Lungs: See above statement, with the note that Internal Air Tanks are actually far, far more effective than this power and only cost 0.25 essence.

Kinesics: Fixer Adepts. Even more powerful than Cultured Tailored Pheremones with the bonus to TN's. Bleah. No.

Linguistics: For no karma cost. For *no* karma cost. I wonder if anyone at FASA bothered to think of the fact that a Trid comes with millions of channels, in every language known to man. I don't even doubt that there are Sperethiel channels. Anyone for picking up two new languages /every day/? I am so not handling those queues. :) Why don't we just say they know all languages at 1 and make it easy? Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Living Focus: Hey, didn't we already have a power about adepts acting as a focus? Oh, wait, this is for sustaining. I wonder if, further down, there's a power that gives mages more dice for Conjuring, too. Seriously, adepts acting as a focus for mages is just a totally whack concept to me. I don't know what they were smoking.

Melanin Control: Hair is dead. How can you change the color of dead stuff? Must be magic. That aside, this is another power that falls into the 'how can we make adepts better at disguising themselves', and thus falls into my personal grudge-bucket about getting away from what Physical Adepts are supposed to be. Have people forgotten that the first word, before 'Adept', is PHYSICAL?

Motion sense: See also: Ultrasound Vision. Only with a new table of TNs to deal with. And more modifiers. And ultimately not being as useful, since Background count applies, and it only gives -2 to visibility. Seriously, if you're using this power, you're likely at a +8 penalty already for being blind.

Multi-Tasking: From the one line description, this power actually LOOKs really really powerful. From the game effects, this looks wussy. However, I'd probably allow this one (after changing the description), because having two Free Actions instead of one is a very useful, but not overpowering, ability. It actually make some sense.

Nimble Fingers: They forgot Draw Weapon. Oh, that's right, Quickdrawing pistols is so easy to do, nobody needs Draw Weapon as a Free Action anyway. Vaguely useful. Would consider it, but the +1 die to Stealth? Covered by Improved Ability. I'd whack that part.

Pain Relief: Hey, look, more mage-powering adept powers! Bleah. That's all. Just bleah. Are these Physical Adepts, or Meta-Physical Adepts?

Penetrating Strike: Hmmm. Something actualy interesting. And it fits. And the prices seem reasonable. As do the rules. I'd probably allow this one.

Resilience: This one seems fairly decent as well. I guess the crack wore off when they got to this section.

Side Step: Oh, no, wait, they took another hit. Full Dodge? Pretty sure they meant Full DEFENSE. Gah. You can almost *double* the size of your effective Combat Pool, and in combat, ranged or melee, your Combat Pool is your life. Too powerful.

Sprint: On the surface, this looks okay. However, I have some qualms about the potential for Adepts to break the sound barrier, like Rigger 3 did with motorcycles. Would have to do the math. Also not sure how ridiculous this would be with Great Leap.

Sustenance: Hey, we have something like this. It's called a Sleep Regulator. But.. uhm. A sleep regulator doesn't work this well, and for only 0.25 points. *THWAK*

Three-D Memory: Magic Rating in square meters? 6 square meters? You could barely memorize a coffin motel's room, 2 x 3 meters. What the hell? Useless.

Voice Control: This is just... I don't know. Kind of silly. And potentially abusive, combined with Controlling Voice.

Wall Running: Another skill that reminds me of bad martial arts movies that have wires everywhere, or video games that allow you to 'wall jump'. Meh. Cheesy, corny, whatever you call it, definately some kind of processed food product.

Metamagics

Attunement: While not, perhaps, overpowering, I question the large number of powers and abilities that are being put forth for Adepts to control animals. Has anyone here ever tried to train an animal to fetch slippers? It takes months. Now imagine trying to control the thing in combat. While it is possible, it takes years and years of training. I get the feeling that pets are becoming an 'in' thing, and that certain powers and abilities reflect that. This is one of them. I would also guess that most GMs simply allow PCs to control pets as if they were another character. Easy, simple - and very very bad, with the playing styles we typically have online. I wouldn't allow this, simply because of the projected abuse it seems to want to encourage.

Cognition: Better than Mnemonic Enhancers, even. The karma reduction applies to all skills. It lets you center with Perception tests. It lets you center against the defaulting penalty from Intelligence. I would chalk this one up to 'too powerful', even with the two prerequistites.

Empower Animal Companion: More animal powers. Almost acceptable, if it didn't seem like part of the new fad. Spending karma for something temporary has also never been something I've been a fan of.

Infusion: A nightmare of bookkeeping and number crunching for the GM running the scene.

Limited Astral Projection: Enh? Enh. This isn't so bad. I could see this.

Somatic Control: As Infusion - but WORSE! Math, attribute numbers, and skill modifiers dance before your eyes! I would flatout refuse to do the math as a GM.

Vituoso: While an interesting concept for a one-time plot, perhaps - SCADS of potential for abuse. Imagine a dancer adept having a Virtuoso act that she begins in the middle of combat. Suddenly, the Background Count jumps to 5, making Magic useless. And potentially enthralling everyone in the area. Alternately, there could be some argument made about a piece of clothing being a Masterpiece, so you have a continual Background Count following you around that Enthralls people. Mage Armor, here I come. Bleah.

As for the different Hermetic ways: Uhm. Hermetics. The whole point of Hermeticism is that they *all work the same way*. Despite quibbling on precise terms, as such, in game terms, they *all work the same way*. That is the point of being a Hermetic Mage. All this seems like extra potentially abusible window dressing.

And lastly, Rune Magic: So, let's see. Double the base time. Extra test to make that can muck up your enchantment. Each restriction reduces the TN by -1. Well, let's start with, 'Only usable by me', and work down from there. On here, we actually say, 'If it doesn't restrict you in some fashion, it's not a geas', but that would make this thing pretty darn useless.

In conclusion... I see a whole boatload of arguments about how things work, mages vs. sammies, marginalized mundanes and overpowered archetypes, and that's just in the new Adept powers. Bunk. They want how much money for this six-month headache waiting to happen again? I'll pass.

Craig

Feel free to share your opinions.

FXcalibur

Feb 7 2005, 12:03 PM

Post #2

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QUOTE

Melanin Control: Hair is dead. How can you change the color of dead stuff? Must be magic. That aside, this is another power that falls into the 'how can we make adepts better at disguising themselves', and thus falls into my personal grudge-bucket about getting away from what Physical Adepts are supposed to be. Have people forgotten that the first word, before 'Adept', is PHYSICAL?

I like the fact that SR3 calls Adepts 'Adepts' and not 'Physical Adepts'.

Ancient History View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 12:07 PM Post #3
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935	This reminds me, I just updated my metamagics page through SOTA: 2064 last night.

toturi

Feb 7 2005, 12:15 PM

Post #4

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QUOTE (FXcalibur @ Feb 7 2005, 08:03 PM)

I like the fact that SR3 calls Adepts 'Adepts' and not 'Physical Adepts'.

I agree and I think that's why the book is called SOTA 2064. It is perfectly fine for people to stay 2050s and have nothing against people who want to play SR2 but come on, people, let's get with the program, shall we?

AH: Cognition reduces Karma for all skills, not just Knowledge skills.

Deacon

Feb 7 2005, 12:24 PM

Post #5

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QUOTE (toturi)

QUOTE (FXcalibur @ Feb 7 2005, 08:03 PM)

I like the fact that SR3 calls Adepts 'Adepts' and not 'Physical Adepts'.

I agree and I think that's why the book is called SOTA 2064. It is perfectly fine for people to stay 2050s and have nothing against people who want to play SR2 but come on, people, let's get with the program, shall we?

AH: Cognition reduces Karma for all skills, not just Knowledge skills.

Okay, folks, let's all harp on the guy for using a term which was ingrained into him from 2nd Edition, shall we?

Frankly, if you have nothing else interesting to add besides laughing at the man for using outdated terms, I don't want to hear it.

Moonwolf View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 12:38 PM Post #6
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 203 Joined: 26-February 02 From: The Golden Orchards Member No.: 2,011	Yeah, adepts are good at what they do, and the new powers are quite powerful, but mundanes at startup can do far more, even if they aren't as good at any one thing. A good cyber/bioware package at startup can be vastly more effective than an adept, and then you complain about the powers that make them different. Remember that an adepts powers are mostly built around what they believe that they should be able to do, and that spellcasting allows all of those to be done much cheaper. Adepts are still the weakest starting team member in my view, but now they can actually fully fulfil their paths, rather than just buying extra stuff to use power points up. Invisible way just ended up taking only about 2-3 points of powers, and then you'd finished before SOTA'64.

Fortune View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 12:39 PM Post #7
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	The only Powers I really have a problem with are the Social ones.

FXcalibur

Feb 7 2005, 12:43 PM

Post #8

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QUOTE (Deacon)

QUOTE (toturi)

QUOTE (FXcalibur @ Feb 7 2005, 08:03 PM)

I like the fact that SR3 calls Adepts 'Adepts' and not 'Physical Adepts'.

I agree and I think that's why the book is called SOTA 2064. It is perfectly fine for people to stay 2050s and have nothing against people who want to play SR2 but come on, people, let's get with the program, shall we?

AH: Cognition reduces Karma for all skills, not just Knowledge skills.

Okay, folks, let's all harp on the guy for using a term which was ingrained into him from 2nd Edition, shall we?

Frankly, if you have nothing else interesting to add besides laughing at the man for using outdated terms, I don't want to hear it.

It's not the term itself. It's that SR3 seemed to make adepts less defined as pure combat archetypes by removing the 'physical' from the front. It opens up more possibilities for exploring powers.

Grinder

Feb 7 2005, 12:47 PM

Post #9

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QUOTE (Fortune)

The only Powers I really have a problem with are the Social ones.

And the opening of improved skill to b/r and technical skills. "i am the master adept of auto repair!". sure.

Sokei View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 01:03 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 123 Joined: 23-November 03 From: Chicago (post bug/pre nuke) Member No.: 5,839	I find the language power to be pretty useless aside from the near automatic language learning at 1.

toturi

Feb 7 2005, 01:06 PM

Post #11

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QUOTE (FXcalibur)

It's not the term itself. It's that SR3 seemed to make adepts less defined as pure combat archetypes by removing the 'physical' from the front. It opens up more possibilities for exploring powers.

Exactly my point. In SR3, it is adepts. The Ways define the adept and there are many Ways, not just "physical" Ways. Social adepts are simply one manifestation. If he was complaining about upsetting game balance, then fine, it is his opinion that such powers upset game balance. But IMO, introducing these powers simply mean that the adept is no longer fixed into certain roles

Large Mike View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 01:09 PM Post #12
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,311 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Calgary, Alberta Member No.: 2,062	Despite some of the powers detracting from other archtypes (taking even facing out of the realm of the relativly uncybered mundane), I cannot objectivly say that any of them are broken. Although you can be damn sure I ask adept characters in my games what their way is much more often now. "Wall running, improved negotiation and killing hands? Sounds like somebody's Way-less."

Xirces

Feb 7 2005, 01:10 PM

Post #13

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QUOTE (Grinder)

QUOTE (Fortune @ Feb 7 2005, 01:39 PM)

The only Powers I really have a problem with are the Social ones.

And the opening of improved skill to b/r and technical skills. "i am the master adept of auto repair!". sure.

Does this include things such as Computer, Electronics or Driving?

Whilst I agree that Adepts can be weak sometimes - any Adept that wishes to specialise in a particular area (Face, Ranged Combat, Unarmed Combat) WILL be better than any other character who specialises in the same field. It's almost at the point where every character might as well be an Adept - you can have the face adept, combat adept, hiding and disguise adept, driving adept, computing adept etc, etc...

Fortune View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 01:12 PM Post #14
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	Technical Skills (computer/electronics/biotech/demolitions etc) are not included in the Improved Ability Power, but their B/R counterparts are (if applicable), as are Vehicle Skills.

hahnsoo View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 01:15 PM Post #15
Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014	The way we've decided to play these new adept rules is to make all adepts follow a "Path" that encompasses a set of abilities (Path of the Warrior, Path of the Invisible Way, Path of the Social Adept, etc.) and any purchase outside the set costs double the amount of power points. It's pretty much similar to the way we've been playing adepts anyway (except that my group typically doesn't purchase powers outside of Path). Adding a new "Path" (on top of the existing one) is a metamagic ability. Magician's Way adepts can choose one other Path to follow at character creation. This is starting to sound a bit like Earthdawn, where every PC is an adept of some sort. :D

Grinder

Feb 7 2005, 01:25 PM

Post #16

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QUOTE (hahnsoo)

This is starting to sound a bit like Earthdawn, where every PC is an adept of some sort. :D

The new adept-power "gliding" is a lot like the Earthdawn-talent "gliding stride".

Garland

Feb 7 2005, 01:29 PM

Post #17

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QUOTE (hahnsoo)

This is starting to sound a bit like Earthdawn, where every PC is an adept of some sort.

Gee, almost like it's the same world or something. :P

Cray74

Feb 7 2005, 01:46 PM

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QUOTE (hahnsoo)

This is starting to sound a bit like Earthdawn, where every PC is an adept of some sort. :D

Someone beat me to it.

Yes, it is. I like a lot of the new options in SOTA:2064. They're really opening up the adept field. No longer just "ninjas" and "kung fu masters," they're really starting to apply magic to many fields - much like in Earthdawn.

Xirces View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 01:53 PM Post #19
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046	I think the big issue is that you can now have an Adept who is, simultaneously, better at fighting than the Sammy, better at driving than the Rigger and better socially than the Face. This was actually always my complaint about the Adept in particular (and magicians in general to a lesser extent) - every other character type becomes redundant. I recall playing 1st edition when adepts (and sorry, they'll always be //physical// adepts to me as well) were first introduced and it didn't seem that bad - pretty effective martial artists with some nice mystical skills. Then the improved ability got extended to modern weapons which took the emphasis away from other characters. Then you get a few more powers added - it's the way that it creeps along, just getting better and better that really bothers me. It doesn't help that idiot fanbois create more super powers because they think adepts are the ultimate power and should be able to flip out and kill everyone. I specifically remember having a conversation with my group about 15 years ago during which I raised the issue that magicial types were getting too powerful, to which I was told that my character (a pretty archetypal sammy) could have all those cool toys from the SSC. A quick scan round everyone's character sheets showed that those toys were been used by EVERYONE - the mage had milspec armour and a PAC, the physad was using forearm guards. You get the idea. Basically, any character type that uses technology can easily be replicated by an adept because they have access to the same tech at no cost to their skills - in some areas Adepts are just better (vision mods count as natural for a start). Spell slinging can be replicated by Adepts already at only marginal loss of skills. Now Adepts also make the best faces. Will SOTA65 include the computing adepts (I know, they're just like Otaku), driving adepts (a natural VCR or some crap like it)? Whilst the notion of having a "way" should constrain things a bit I don't see how this can be enforced. How long before someone wants a Ninja (who as we all know are a combination of Warrior's Way, Invisible Way, Social Way, Disguise Way and Every Which Way)? Bah. //edit: (wow, I ranted more than i thought..!)//

toturi View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 02:02 PM Post #20
Canon Companion Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187	Yes, the Path of the Munchkin would pretty much give you access to any power you'd like. :D Looking at it from a IC POV, I see it as why the Awakened are often allowed things that a mundane suit would not be allowed to do. An Awakened asset is an asset that no mundane can ever hope to duplicate. All the mundane PC have over the magical PC is the advantage of having earlier access to technological toys than the magical types and not having to worry about magical loss from deadly damage.

Demonseed Elite View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 02:24 PM Post #21
Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67	I'm all for criticism, feedback, and discussion, but that guy's rant is all over the map. I'm not even sure where his point is. Some powers he describes as overpowered, some underpowered, some not "popular" enough for entry, some he just "doesn't like." I want to respond, but I'm not really sure I can, because I can't see where his position is. What is he saying?

Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*	Feb 7 2005, 02:46 PM Post #22
Guests	You use the term, "pooched mundanes" like it's a bad thing. Frankly, I look at the SR1 and SR2 physads (LIke I'm going to use terms created by Steve Kenson. Right.), and compared to SR3 they just flat-out suck. The rules for attribute (including Reaction) bonuses was just awful, as was the decoupling of Inc. Reaction and Inc. Reflexes. You didn't have any of the Centering bonuses--You had to actually get a power called Enhanced Centering for 2 pp each. Frankly, for nearly ten years (I was a latecomer to SR3) my reaction to physads was: Why bother? Besides, a physad may now be a better driver than a Rigger. But they'll never be faster, nor will they be able to do anything Rigger-like except drive the car. Oooooooh.

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 02:52 PM Post #23
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	quick translation: "omg SOTA:64 is teh suck!!1!!!" seriously, some of the complaints he made are just plain wrong. for instance, his complaint about Empathic Reading centers around the fact that using Negotiation to lie is "a new one on him". page 88 of SR3, which specifically states that Negotiation is what you roll when you're trying to lie to someone, has been around long enough that anyone it catches by surprise has only themselves to blame. most of his other complaints are based on the fact that he wouldn't want to play an adept with these powers--which automatically means, apparently, that no one else should either, making the entire book a waste of money. not to mention the fact that he missed the most glaring flaw in the entire book: Three-D Memory is measured in square meters.

Garland View Member Profile	Feb 7 2005, 02:52 PM Post #24
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 527 Joined: 30-January 04 Member No.: 6,043	I'm not sure how creating "useless" powers "pooches mundanes." Then again, I'm not sure what "pooching" is.

hahnsoo

Feb 7 2005, 03:03 PM

Post #25

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (Xirces)

Whilst the notion of having a "way" should constrain things a bit I don't see how this can be enforced. How long before someone wants a Ninja (who as we all know are a combination of Warrior's Way, Invisible Way, Social Way, Disguise Way and Every Which Way)?

Bah.

//edit: (wow, I ranted more than i thought..!)//

We use the designations listed in Magic in the Shadows, along with Way of the Beast, Way of the Social Adept, Way of the Explorer (Vehicle Skills), and Way of the Creator (B/R). It is enforced by group consensus (since we have long since done away with GM fiat). Plus, my group is pretty concerned about maintaining balance and respect to the genre (again, we've never had anyone take powers "outside" of their way before). It's not that we oppose the new powers (I like the fact that there are Music and Social adepts finally), which breathe a long breath of fresh air into the adept rules (whether they like it or not :) ). I'm personally looking forward to the resurgance of the Rocker archetype.

I'm glad folks caught the Earthdawn reference with the big cheesy grin.

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