 Adept Powers of SOTA 2064, Way to go, authors, you pooched mundanes |
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 Feb 7 2005, 03:09 PM
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#26
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Prime Runner  Group: Retired Admins Posts: 3,929 Joined: 26-February 02 From: .ca Member No.: 51  |
I suspect it means "screws" or "makes pointless" in this context. :-) |
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Feb 7 2005, 03:15 PM
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#27
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
OK, it's not a well written rant (actually doesn't "rant" preclude "well-written"?), but as I tried to point out (in my own rant) there are some valid points...
1) In some ways, Adepts are given increased power specifically because, currently, there are things that they cannot do as well as other character types (much like the unbalanced crap you find on the intarwebs - some of this really is only one step away from the Adept smartlink power) 2) Adepts are given additional powers and options to allow them to achieve things that are niche, or "flavour of the month" (animal training) 3) Adepts are given additional powers that aren't actually any good, making one wonder why anyone would take them and leading to an impression that it's not been thought out properly. But, hey, none of that matters because everyone knows that Adepts are cool and have real ultimate power™. I've not got SOTA64 (and judging from the the content I've heard about so far - not including this - so it's not on my shopping list for a while - especially since PDFs of some OOP is now available...) but it seems a continuation of the trend of making magic in general and adepts in particular into the superheroes that some people seem to want runners to be... Some of the stuff like the music/performance fields might be interesting - I actually like the Rocker and media stuff from Shadowbeat so I'm interested in how this will sit together... |
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Feb 7 2005, 03:21 PM
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#28
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
The animal stuff will probably tie in quite well with the soon-to-be-released Running Wild.
As I said earlier, the Social Powers are the things I have the most trouble swallowing. I also don't see the rationale behind the Metamagics like Cognition and Attunement (Animal) being Adept-only, as opposed to being open to all Initiates. |
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Feb 7 2005, 03:25 PM
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#29
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
For the record, and as a writer (though not one that was involved with SOTA64), I do think the whole magic vs. cybersams vs. deckers vs. riggers relationship needs a serious re-examining with an SR4 sometime in the near future. But that's not my call. ;)
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| Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_* |
Feb 7 2005, 03:45 PM
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#30
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Guests |
No. That would be, "ravings of an ignorant lunatic."
Because they're similar to the physad-only Centering bonuses for skills, maybe?
Any particular reason why, DE? I've never understood the very nature of the sam vs. physad debate, so maybe it's just me that I couldn't care less about which character type can kick the most ass. But I do find it interesting that people are concerned that there might be more physads to reflect the fact that there are by canon more Adepts--physads, sorcerors, conjurers, shamanists, elementalists, et al.--than there are full mages. If this is what it takes to reflect that reality, then so be it. As for the original rant... meh. |
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Feb 7 2005, 03:59 PM
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#31
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Well, when the game first started, there were clear divisions between the various "roles." You were a decker or a sam or an adept or a mage, etc. Which is one way to go with a game. Since then, the game has moved in a direction that blurs the lines. There are many flavors of adepts now, many crawling into roles once dominated by other characters (I'm not making a judgement here on whether that's good or bad, it's just a fact). Deckers are now often played as combo-characters as half-decker/half-sam or something, mostly because that role was very sidelined compared to others because of how the rules worked. Riggers often have some overlap too. And as the rules continue to be developed, there definitely seems to be a design intent to blur these lines more. Which I'm not saying is bad. In fact, I'm a huge fan of games that don't put characters in little cookie-cutter archetypes ("Oh, I'm the level 10 Rogue/Fighter!"). But I think SR is kinda in a limbo where the basic mechanics of the game still make those role distinctions, but the books since have blurred the lines away from that. So I think it'd be great if SR4 came around to really build the rules from the ground up getting rid of the clear-cut distinctions (though samples could still be given that include clear-cut roles). I would like to see more deckers that are part of the physical extraction team and know how to use weapons. I'd like to see more combat specialists who mix a few magical abilities with high-tech cyber. And not be munchkin while doing it, just a fundamental design where those things can be mixed without an overpoweredness or a flexible view of the rules. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:01 PM
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#32
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
I've been out of Shadowrun for a number of years now, and only recently have I just begun to return to the game because some old gaming buddies asked that I run a SR game. So I head to the local comic/game shop and see various new sourcebooks...cool. I was very glad to see SR is continuing to evolve, until I actually began to look a little closer at the new books. I dunno, as an old player/GM (I got in just after the release of 2nd Ed) I find this need to release a State of the Art book every year somewhat disturbing. It seems like a few new toys for players and GMs alike that is meant to get more of your money as a Shadowrun gamer. It seems very mercenary to me, and it doesn't seem like I get back as much as I pay for it. I still haven't seen SOTA 2063, but that doesn't really matter, I'm still gonna pass on that stuff for now. I'll stick to my main sourcebook, my gun book, my magic book, my rigger book, my cyberware book, and my matrix book. Honestly, I don't even need all that, I have yet to even read the Decker book, and I find the rigger book majorly less useful to me now that it doesn't even contain pictures of the vehicles anymore (and why the hell not?).
As for Mr Johnson's Little Black Book, that's awesome, and I applaud that they brought all that old stuff back. I probably would have picked that up if I didn't already have the Sprawl Sites book and the Contacts booklet. What happened to the cool sourcebooks that showed other facets of the Shadowrun universe, like the geographic ones (there's 90% of the SR world that isn't even touched) and genre books like the Underworld Sourcebook and Cyberpirates? Has Shadowrun now been reduced to a pure monetary enterprise, run by the almighty dollar? My, my, how ironic that seems to me, a game that pokes jabs at corps who are interested in only money being published by a company that seems to follow the very same formula. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:04 PM
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#33
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Mr. Quote-function Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,317 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Somewhere in Germany Member No.: 1,376 |
*erm* Do you have canon source for that, because so far I was under the impression that full magicians make up the majority of those 1% of awakened persons within the SR universe ... |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:05 PM
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#34
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Shadow Scholar, I think you need to go back to your gaming store and look at the collection of books again. There is a major book line in SR for geographical locations, the "Shadows of..." series. Shadows of North America and Shadows of Europe are already on the shelves. Shadows of Asia and Shadows of Latin America are in development now. Books like Running Wild and Loose Alliances are purely genre books like you speak of, the first covering how to work in paracritters into the game and the latter full of organizations with agendas.
The State of the Art books were actually something that was heavily requested by the player base; yearly updates full of fluff and flavor, with small tidbits that otherwise wouldn't see print because it isn't enough for a full book on its own. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:07 PM
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#35
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
This keeps coming up, but according to canon there are more full mages than aspected ones. I believe that canon states something similar to '1% of the population are magically active, a fraction of which are Aspected'*. *Actual quote not available at the moment. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:12 PM
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#36
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
This is a particularly unfair thing to state - the release schedules are better timed and planned than ever and the books seem to be far better also... The fact that you can communicate openly with the authors and publishers in a variety of ways and actually GET INVOLVED if you want says a lot about the way things are. The move towards producing PDFs (and without DRM!) shows a trust in the customer that wouldn't go amiss amongst other creative industries... I actually like SOTA63 - the collected rules from other various source are a good idea and whilst I agree on the "new toys" point - that is always going to be the case in any game set in an evolving world and actually part of the fun. The argument here is about how the (toys|powers|spells|guns) are distributed between various character types and maintaining balance - for such a technologically advanced world there seems to be more focus on magic than anything else. (Although M&M did open up some wonderful new worlds for cyber-based characters there's still not a lot there that can't, basically, be done by an adept as well) |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:13 PM
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#37
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Keep in mind that the argument is further blurred by the fact that some books consider somatic adepts in the same category as aspected magicians, and some do not. The SR3 main book considers adepts and aspected magicians entirely seperate categories, but later books blur that line. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:14 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 139 Joined: 6-February 05 Member No.: 7,059 |
Demonseed, yeah, you're probably right. I've been out of the game for a while, it is just that seeing all these new books without much substance (to me) didn't really spark any excitement in me. As for the Shadows of NA and Europe, I've got various books like Neo A's Guide to NA and the London and Germany Sourcebook, are these new incarnations better/more informative than the old stuff I've got? As for Shadows of Asia and Latin America, I'll probably pick those up, I've been wanting to see some official info on those parts of the world for a long, long time now. Have they published anything for Australia yet? Or Africa?
As for the SOTA, I'm still probably going to stay away from those. Hopefully they'll just package all that new tech & magic into fully fleshed out sourcebooks later, or maybe even throw it in Shadowrun 4th Edition. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:17 PM
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#39
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Australia features as a majority of the Target: Awakened Lands book. I'd pick that up if you want info on Australia. From what I know, a Shadows of Africa is planned, but it hasn't started development yet.
You just won't see books like the London Sourcebook again, unfortunately. Yes, they went into a great deal more depth, but they didn't sell well. Partially because they were so focused that it was easy for a majority of the player base to ignore that book if they had no interest in England (or Germany, or whatever the book specialized in). One of those facts of life, it's not mercenary, but you need to be able to sell the book enough to make it worth the development costs. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:37 PM
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#40
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Chrome to the Core Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,152 Joined: 14-October 03 From: ::1 Member No.: 5,715 |
I think one statement sums our answers up:
"If you don't like it, don't use it!" Whiner. |
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Feb 7 2005, 04:47 PM
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#41
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Man In The Machine Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,264 Joined: 26-February 02 From: I-495 S Member No.: 1,105 |
And here, all along, I allowed improved skill to be in anything it damm well wanted to be in. I had someone give me a contact that was subtitled Mechanic Adept. Zen and the Art of rebuilding carburetors anyone?
I need to get my hands on that book... |
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Feb 7 2005, 05:23 PM
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#42
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Incertum est quo loco te mors expectet; Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,548 Joined: 24-October 03 From: DeeCee, U.S. Member No.: 5,760 |
I just got my SOTA64 book on Friday, and my wife was rather miffed that I kicked her out of bed so I could tuck it in next to me.
Honestly, adepts have gotten the short end of the stick for a very long time. It wasn't until they could geas their powers that any players would seriously look at them unless they were going for a ninja. While I'm not sure about some of these powers, I love the fact that they filled them out into unexplored areas (animal training, which honestly fits better with adept than any other character type because of the 'spiritual connection' drek) and more importantly, artists! I tried making an artist adept once and I came away pretty upset because there were so few powers that I felt were really appropriate. Artists make up a big chunk of the SR culture, but they're largely ignored in the books. I'm still scratching my head on how people can complain about there not being enough cyber for the 'average joe', stuff PCs wouldn't buy but that add flavor to the game, but now that we get powers like that people fuss about it. It's there for flavor! It's there for people who don't want to make ninjas! Deal with it. I haven't see these powers in use yet, so I can't comment on how unbalancing they are. I do hope the next book continues expanding options for mundanes, though. They desperately need a boost, especially something that lets them channel their karma somewhere useful after they've maxed out their skills. As much as I hate to say it, the idea of being able to buy back essence with some extreme karma cost is sounding more and more enticing. |
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Feb 7 2005, 06:02 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 424 Joined: 11-May 02 From: Marauding the mighty North Saskatchewan Member No.: 2,720 |
You've never read Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Repair I take it... ;) |
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Feb 7 2005, 06:16 PM
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#44
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Do you mean Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance?
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Feb 7 2005, 06:25 PM
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#45
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
I think the powers in SOTA 2064 are a step toward curing the "one trick pony" syndrome that has plagued adepts since they were introduced (and even despite the expansion of their abilities in SR3).
An adept can out shine just about anybody IN ONE SPECIALIZED AREA, but that’s about it. They pretty much suck every where else, and if you tried to make a generalist adept you would find the powers so expensive that by the time you develop a working knowledge of one or two new areas the rest of your team has totally surpassed your character in power and ability. At least now there are some options... |
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Feb 7 2005, 06:27 PM
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#46
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Method, that assumes you don't let the adept buy Karma for cash and then puchase power points for karma. It has been so long I can't remember if that was a house rule for 2nd Ed though.
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Feb 7 2005, 06:37 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 345 Joined: 10-February 03 From: Leeds, UK Member No.: 4,046 |
... even if the other person shares the same area of specialisation and sinks all his karma and experience into that area because, like, y'know, the Adept is magic and magic is kewl. |
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Feb 7 2005, 06:41 PM
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#48
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
you're absolutely right. what were the writers thinking, allowing magic to offer characters an advantage?
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Feb 7 2005, 06:51 PM
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#49
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,078 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 67 |
Karma for Cash and Cash for Karma are optional rules though, and can be highly unbalancing. GMs have to use them very carefully, and if certain character types are dominating the game through the use of them, obviously the GM isn't using them appropriately. |
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Feb 7 2005, 06:52 PM
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#50
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Street Doc Group: Admin Posts: 3,508 Joined: 2-March 04 From: Neverwhere Member No.: 6,114 |
Actually, I have never used that optional rule. It seems it would be difficult to moderate it such that you don't upset game balance (that’s my personal opinion based on my experience and my players). I've never really liked the idea.
Well as mfb has said, what’s wrong with magic granting a character an advantage? Have you seen the cost of adept powers? They aren't cheep and IMG 20 karma is a lot. Lets not forget that an adept pays BPs for this "privilege" as well. Is it just because being mundane has no innate advantage? Oh wait, isn't that what mundane means? Normal? Run of the mill? Unexceptional? |
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