Suppressive Fire, Deadly in sewers Options

[tisoz]

Just ran some players through the first part on DNA/DOA. Only one of them brought anything bigger than a heavy pistol and that was a SMG, so they all tok the offered AK97s and AK98s, even though they had no AR skill.

Anyway, they get into the sewer and hit the first firefight against a 6 person gang led by a Street Sam.

[ Spoiler ]

It was busier than Grand Central Station down there, had to change the 2D6 vs TN 9 roll to vs 10. They were getting in gun battles every other roll.

I'm thinking +2 modifiers for using astral perception (all of them had it, but no flashlights), defaulting for using a firearm they don't have the skill for, maybe a few more...

The first guy decides to fire full auto, 10 shots, across the 2 meter wide sewer. So puts 5 bullets in each meter. The gang burns through its combat pool (probably a mistake and should have saved it for the damage resistance test.) Only the St. Sam got enough successes, and that took a reroll. So then the suppressing character makes a standard ranged combat Attack Test against the defender. Apply modifiers only for the attacker's wounds, the target's cover (if any), and a +2 for suppressive fire. So most of the gang takes a moderate or serious wound. The next PC saw how well that worked, so mimics it, 3 more moderate wounds because he missed half the gang, even though they had no combat pool left to dodge.

The next PC is worried about losing intiative and taking return fire in these close quarters, so pours all 10 shots into 1 meter, the one with the St. Sam at serious +3 boxes. It didn't matter that he put all 10 shots into the one meter, because that only matters to the dodge roll. The gang was done dodging this round. But his 2 successes are enough. The only NPC with a starting reaction over 10 is now dead. The next PC sees that the number of bullets don't matter so fires a burst into the 1 meter where the surviving 3 gang members are and kills them all.

Then he asks if he could have done it with one shot? I say no, because then it's a shot, not suppressive fire. Something about killing 3 people with 3 unaimed bullets seemed bad enough, but killing 3 with one bullet seems a bit too much.

Is this silly because of the close confines or did I screw up somewhere?

[Kagetenshi]

Let me put it this way.

If it's a two-meter area, and you're pumping FA fire into it, anyone on the other side should be dying, and fast, regardless of skill.

In other words, you did it properly but I submit that it is not silly.

~J

[Austere Emancipa...]

It'd sound somewhat less silly if rates of fire in Shadowrun were more realistic, since we'd then be talking about ~3-6 times as many rounds fired into the same space in the same time.

Still, even 30 rounds fired somewhat accurately into a 2 x 1 meter corridor within a few seconds would indeed cause serious problems to whoever is occupying said corridor at that time.

One thing that perhaps should be taken into account is that if 3 gangers occupy one side of the 2-meter-wide corridor, some of them are probably behind the others. Thus hitting them all would be rather problematic, at least with just 3 rounds fired. Maybe apply a Barrier Rating of (BOD + Armor)/2 of the ganger(s) in front when trying to hit the guys behind, or something of that nature, or just give them some measure of Cover.

Another thing: Thanks to a perceptive Dumpshocker, the latest errata of the Cannon Companion includes this bit: "Page 107: Suppressive Fire [3]
In the third paragraph, in the second sentence add "defaulting," between "attacker's wounds," and "the target's cover""
So your PCs, without any AR skills, should probably not have been hitting the gangers that well.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 7 2005, 10:40 PM

[James McMurray]

I haven't read the suppressive fire rules, how do they differ from normal fire? If the rules make it so that suppressive fire is better than normal fire, then the rules are definitely silly. You should not be able to kill people better with random fire than with aimed shots.

[mfb]

you have to fire a minimum of 6 rounds in order to suppress. so, no, no 1-bullet suppression.

you did it right. the only silly part is that it took 30 rounds in a 2-meter area to kill six people. and even that isn't that silly.

[hahnsoo]

[The White Dwarf]

Agree with the above. But wanted to point out its 1 meter squares, not linear divisions of space. As in, a sewer thats 2 meters wide, and 2 meters tall, has 4 square meters of space as far as designating surpessive fire. That said, against people standing straight up with the ability to crouch, shooting the lower 2 square meters is a pretty fair move, but theres times when thats not the case.

[Arethusa]

[mfb]

oh, yeah, i'd fire 30 rounds just to be sure, too--unless i were playing shadowrun, in whichi case i'd fire 60 rounds just to be sure. in real life, 15-20 rounds or should ought to be enough; the other 10-15 are just to be sure. in SR, it actually takes all 30 rounds to do the job.

[Jrayjoker]

Surpessive fire in an enclosed space is incredibly deadly. Field of fire and zone of control is all that matters, you could be sending 6L rounds down there and it would still chew anybody up similarly to the chunky salsa effect of grenadesIMO.

[kevyn668]

What was that old Shadowtalk line about MPs? Or was it the Supermach?

Something about, "Oh boy, now I can flatten light rounds against body armor faster than ever before."

[Crimson Jack]

Not to mention how deafening all of these fire fights would be. :dead:

[mfb]

haha, yeah. nobody ever considers that.

[hahnsoo]

[mfb]

say again?

[kevyn668]

[tisoz]

Erratta, good. That was one I thought should apply but didn't see.

Now does TN8 still apply for defaulting using suppressive fire? As in can't defualt. Don't see why not.

How about defaulting from chipped skill? I'm guessing that is ok.

I am getting ready to make them make a weapon check to reload. One guy will probably end up reloading all the ARs for the party.

[Fortune]

[DrJest]

[tisoz]

[mfb]

only very slightly. anybody who's watched Heat can operate a gun. they won't be able to maintain it, but they'll certainly be able to point it in the right direction, hold down the trigger, and reasonably expect bullets to come out.

[DrJest]

I'm sure it's been done in lots of movies, but there was a scene from one - or maybe it was a book - where the gun-savvy character says to the non-savvy one something like "this is the safety. Push that across, point the gun at the bad guy, pull the trigger until you run out of bullets."

[tisoz]

Almost started another topic to discuss when it is appropriate to enforce the defaulting limit, but I'll remind people in this situation they had a visibility modifier and the suppressive fire modifier that put the TN to 8.

Let them default? By the book, no.

[edit] Oops, btb, Yes. Unless I have the gangers dive below the water level seeking some cover. :(

This post has been edited by tisoz: Feb 8 2005, 03:51 AM

[Fortune]

[mfb]

tisoz, visibility modifiers don't apply to suppressive fire.