The Indestructable Leopard III

The Indestructable Leopard III, Call in the big guns...

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:43 AM Post #101
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	the Leopard III hard to stop if properly supported. if it's just some guy driving it around, well, the elemental-in-the-pilot-compartment scenario is wholly doable.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 04:46 AM Post #102
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Indeed. Keep in mind that whoever put the ward there can allow people or things through it. ~J

kevyn668

Feb 9 2005, 04:47 AM

Post #103

Runner

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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

QUOTE (kevyn668 @ Feb 8 2005, 11:30 PM)

I guess we have an aswer then. Save up and buy the Leopard III. It may take a little longer to get there but no one will ever be able to stop you. Its a smuggler's dream. :)

According to R3 Aztlan puts railguns on light patrol vehicles. And then there's illusion magic. And sabotage. And then there is the eventual defeat of the ward and defense systems. And... oh, right, you were being facetious.

If you're going to put Wards, might as well put Barriers. Illusions don't stand up to a good sensor pack. Sabotage has to defeat the armor rating. There was no way to defeat the Ward before, no need to worry about it now.

Yep, still being facetious.

Edit: :D

Kanada Ten

Feb 9 2005, 04:51 AM

Post #104

Beetle Eater

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QUOTE

If you're going to put Wards might as well put Barriers.

Sure, why not. Barriers against what exactly? Obviously Bullet Barrier is a bit of a waste. Railgun Shell barrier is a bit of a waste as well, too specific. Of course, barriers also glow, but meh, it is a tank. Still, I'd know to hit it hard with something to knockdown the Barrier and then blast it with the railgun.

QUOTE

Illusions don't stand up to a good sensor pack.

Yes they do. Trid Phantasm is effects all senses that the caster can imagine (look at Vehicle Mask which affects Sig). And Confusion adds straight to all TNs within the domain.

QUOTE

There was no way to defeat the Ward before, no need to worry about it now.

I didn't say there was no way to beat the ward. Simply that it wasn't as easy as a single elemental.

kevyn668

Feb 9 2005, 05:00 AM

Post #105

Runner

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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)

QUOTE

If you're going to put Wards might as well put Barriers.

Sure, why not. Barriers against what exactly? Obviously Bullet Barrier is a bit of a waste. Railgun Shell barrier is a bit of a waste as well, too specific. Of course, barriers also glow, but meh, it is a tank. Still, I'd know to hit it hard with something to knockdown the Barrier and then blast it with the railgun.

QUOTE

Illusions don't stand up to a good sensor pack.

Yes they do. Trid Phantasm is effects all senses that the caster can imagine (look at Vehicle Mask which affects Sig). And Confusion adds straight to all TNs within the domain.

QUOTE

There was no way to defeat the Ward before, no need to worry about it now.

I didn't say there was no way to beat the ward. Simply that it wasn't as easy as a single elemental.

I guess we have the answer then. Don't save up and get the Leopard III. It is far too easy to defeat.

Kanada Ten

Feb 9 2005, 05:02 AM

Post #106

Beetle Eater

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Yeah, get two: it's the only way to be sure.

Or how about: use them in their intended role with proper support and they can be welcomed assets in the 2060 battlefield?

QUOTE

Sabotage has to defeat the armor rating.

Forgot this one. Depends: If you're using a shaped charge or such, then yes it does. Unless, of course, you happen to know the tank will be manned and plant a bomb inside the seat cushions... Which brings me to the point that sabotage isn't considered an attack by the rules. It's a B&R test to one degree or another, and while you might have to overcome barrier here or there and alarm systems, they have tools that will allow it to work.

Which raises a question: with the proper reference material and tools (no idea how they got there), could an Elemental default to Intelligence and dismantle a tank? I guess it also reraises that age old question of whether they can even read. :spin:

This post has been edited by Kanada Ten: Feb 9 2005, 05:17 AM

tisoz View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 05:36 AM Post #107
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,948 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	A spirit can not materialize inside a warded space it has not previousely visited. A Great Form Elemental may be able to perform feats similar to the shape earth spell based on some of the examples of other types of elementals. Does anyone think Denver had something similar to these on hand when Ghostwalker pranced through? Maybe rigger controlled ones so that it did not matter if the spirit was able to defeat the wards before triggering the release of the FABIII? Hey I thought the thread was slowing down.;)

mfb View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 05:42 AM Post #108
Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670	well, the practical limit on commonly-used wards is going to be 7. most mages can expect to get at least 1-2 successes on a TN 7 test. 7 is pretty hefty, but three or four force 5 spirits will make short work of it due to friends in melee. now, those spirits would normally be opposed by enemy spirits... except that Ghostwalker is the spirit-summoningest mofo around; he probably ganked control of a lot of those enemy spirits--which, come to think, may well have had permission to pass those wards.

hyzmarca

Feb 9 2005, 06:31 AM

Post #109

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QUOTE (James McMurray)

An elemental spell would have to be force 41 to affect a vehicle with 40 armor. I'd hate to have to soak that drain! :)

Just cast it at Light and don't bother putting any dice in drain resistance. Any decent sorcerer can stage it up a few times. A sorcer caipible of learning a force 41 spell can stage it up well past Deadly. A Light physical wound is a reasonable price to pay for taking down a tank.

The only problem is actually learning the spell at that force.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 06:36 AM Post #110
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Or get a brainfailingthebiowarewhatshuntsapointofdamagetoStun and don't worry about the damage (or alternately be able to cast at Moderate). ~J

Tal View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 06:39 AM Post #111
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 187 Joined: 30-April 04 Member No.: 6,294	A pain editor?

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 06:50 AM Post #112
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	No, not that one. Trauma Damper, that was it. ~J

RunnerPaul

Feb 9 2005, 07:18 AM

Post #113

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QUOTE (BitBasher)

It doesn't also say that most TIR ghosts wear underwear but I'll wager they do.

And here all this time, I thought they "went commando".

Austere Emancipa...

Feb 9 2005, 07:56 AM

Post #114

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QUOTE (grendel)

RPGs will not penetrate the armor on a modern MBT, which is designed to defeat shaped charge warheads on anti-tank missiles as well as kinetic penetrators fired from other tanks. As others have stated, though, tank treads remain vulnerable to man-portable weapons systems. This will grant you a mobility kill, but will in no way eliminate the tank as a threat to your forces.

This may be true of the older RPG-7 warheads, but not necessarily true of all RPGs. The PG-7V/VM rockets only penetrate around 300mm RHS at 90 degrees, comparable to an M72 LAW. The newer warheads (PG-7VL/VR) claim 600-750mm penetration, which has been proved sufficient to penetrate the side hull armor of M1A1s and to knock them out.

Several of the heavier personal anti-tank weapons have equal penetration but better terminal effect through armor -- I'm sure you've seen the pictures of the Abrams that was penetrated from the side with one of the newer PG-7 warheads and knocked out, but with only a 1" diameter hole and very limited damage to the interior. I would not be surprised if an AT-4 penetrated the side hull armor of some MBTs.

Of course, this balance has been drastically changed in SR, where personal anti-armor rocket weaponry is not a threat to any armored military vehicle, including the lightest of the APCs.

Also note: Light Naval Guns and Light Railguns do not penetrate the Leo III.

Rock-Steady

Feb 9 2005, 08:20 AM

Post #115

Target

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QUOTE (hyzmarca)

The only problem is actually learning the spell at that force.

And hitting the target number which is 38 for the Leopard.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 09:56 AM Post #116
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	If it's a manipulation and not a combat spell the TN is 4, normal ranged combat modifiers apply...

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 10:12 AM Post #117
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	Talking about TNs, the TN to learn a Force 41 spell is 82 -- 13 sixes and a 4 or more. Although you're more likely to get stuck trying to get the Force 41 Shamanic Lodge and Spell Formula, both of which have an Availability of 41. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Feb 9 2005, 10:16 AM

Birdy

Feb 9 2005, 10:35 AM

Post #118

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QUOTE (Crimson Jack)

Are these things all grounded so that electrical secondary effects won't hurt them? If not, elemental spell. Zark!

Read up on Farradeyen (sp? The physics guy) cages and cars. No chance a magescum can affect a vehicle that way.

Birdy

Birdy

Feb 9 2005, 10:38 AM

Post #119

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QUOTE (Crimson Jack)

QUOTE (Kanada Ten @ Feb 8 2005, 06:12 PM)

QUOTE

wards and fab will not stop a spirit if it comes directly from its metaplane iirc.

The problem is the spirit cannot come directly from it's metaplane unless the mage can see where the spirit is to end up because it requires a service to bypass the ward via a metaplane and once sent on a remote service all other services are gone. I suppose one could allow the mage to say "return to your metaplane and then enter the tank and kill all the occupants inside" but I don't know if I'd allow it.

I would. Creative thinking merits good results, especially considering the fact that no one in my PCs' group would have something that could stop that type of juggernaut.

I would not. It's exactly this "let magescum get away with everything" attitude that pisses me off and turns the game to "Mages R us".

An order is a simple and clear command, not a complex string of orders. Tough luck maggie-boy, the tank just squished you!

Birdy

Birdy

Feb 9 2005, 10:52 AM

Post #120

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QUOTE (Club)

I thought I remembered this:

Fields of fire, the page that talks about the Great Dragon ATGM. Matador (RIP) comments that

QUOTE

"...on the high end, armor technology is out-pacing armor-piercing technology. That state of affairs began nearly 20 years ago, when the new alloy composite armor hit the field"

In short, insanely tough vehicles are the norm. The standards of today get tossed out the window in 2034. MBT's should, by cannon, be Indestructable to small arms.

Yeah, Hestaby can summon spirits that can batter down any ward a mere human can put up. Or a powerful human mage could make an astral smack pack and hope to get lucky

Can a bushmaster AC hurt an Abrams? 'Cause I've always thought of an assault cannon of being a single-shot man-portable version.

Actually it is another of the old SR problems. Since it lacks hit locations it is not really suited to modern combat. A typical way to get rid of a US Mobile bunker (aka M1) is to shove an AT projectile up his rear or kick him in the ribs. From the front current tanks are impenetrable by their own guns IRL.

Not that being hit is funny. According to guy who played "Sherman kicking" in WWII (Get together with some friends, see who kills the most Shermans with the least ammo) you can expect nosebleeds, concussions and similar problems.

On the other hand, if you really want to deal with tanks, get a good system and don't use one that can (barely) handle infantry combat.

Birdy

Traks View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 11:59 AM Post #121
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 4-June 03 Member No.: 4,685	Well, we could houserule that from sides tank gets 2/3 armor and from rear 1/2. Or something similar, reflecting RL and simple enough to calculate.

Austere Emancipa... Austere Emancipator View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 12:02 PM Post #122
Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222	M242 Bushmaster firing M792 High Explosive Incendiary-Tracer: Projectile weight: 185 grams / 2,855 grains Muzzle velocity: 1,100 meters per second / 3,609 feet per second Muzzle energy: 111,979 Joules / 82,592 foot-pounds M242 Bushmaster firing M791 APDS-Tracer: Projectile weight: 134 grams / 2,068 grains Muzzle velocity: 1,345 meters per second / 4,413 feet per second Muzzle energy: 121,276 Joules / 89,449 foot-pounds Compare with the most powerful shoulder-fired weapons in existence. 25x59mm Barrett XM109 Payload Rifle firing HE: Projectile weight: 132 grams / 2,037 grains Muzzle velocity: ~400 meters per second / ~1,300 feet per second Muzzle energy: 10,367 Joules / 7,646 foot-pounds .50 BMG M82A1 Barrett firing M962 Saboted Light Armor Piercing-Tracer: Projectile weight: 23.3 grams / 360 grains Muzzle velocity: 1,219 meters per second / 4,000 feet per second Muzzle energy: 17,345 Joules / 12,793 foot-pounds 14.5x114mm PTRD anti-tank rifle firing Armor Piercing Incendiary: Projectile weight: 64.2 grams / 990 grains Muzzle velocity: 975 meters per second / 3,200 feet per second Muzzle energy: 30,528 Joules / 22,516 foot-pounds You'll notice that even the most powerful shoulder-fired weapons ever generate less than 1/4th the muzzle energy of the M242 chain gun. Unless you envision Assault Cannons as a weapon only trolls can fire, and only from the prone supported position, you'll need to slightly downtune them.

Crusher Bob View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 12:29 PM Post #123
Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253	The ratio is probably closer to 10/4/2 or so... Here's some estimtes for modern day tanks: (mm RHA) M1A2SEP vs KE: Front 660 Side 440 Rear 115 vs HEAR: Fron 1430 Side 930 Rear: 115 Leopard 2A6 vs KE: Front 680 Side 500 Rear 115 vs HEAT: Front 1350 Side 1090 Rear: 115 Challenger 2 vs KE: Front 600 Side 410 Rear 115 vs HEAT: Front 1300 Side 890 Rear 115 T80U vs KE: Front 500 Side 185 Rear 100 vs HEAT: Front 1050 Side: 185 Rear: 100 The western tanks have composite armor with significalty better protection from HEAT attacks. I think the Russian tanks still make do with reactive armor panels (why they don't have additional HEAT resistance from the sides). Here's some penetration values for various smaller stuff: SMAW 600mm AT4 400mm 25mm cannon (Bradley) 70mm-40mm (Range Based) 40mm GL 50mm RPG16 375mm Garl Gustav 400mm Most AT missiles will do from 800-1600mm, depending... But the good ones can at least mission kill a tank from the front, at least some of the time. So according to these values, you can tank out basically any tank with a LAW from the top/rear, but probably not take out a good tank from the side. You can always blow off a track though. The heavier stuff (SMAW) might be able to take out a tank from the side. The 25mm canon won't even penetrate the rear armor of the tank.

kevyn668

Feb 9 2005, 01:40 PM

Post #124

Runner

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QUOTE

QUOTE
Sabotage has to defeat the armor rating.
Forgot this one. Depends: If you're using a shaped charge or such, then yes it does. Unless, of course, you happen to know the tank will be manned and plant a bomb inside the seat cushions...

The seat cushions have 40 armor too, apparently, so why bother?

Demosthenes View Member Profile	Feb 9 2005, 01:47 PM Post #125
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 401 Joined: 7-June 02 From: Living with the straw sheep. Member No.: 2,850	Well, if you stick a bomb under the seat, then you could probably rely on the chunky salsa effect to deal with the crew - I doubt the cockpit of a tank is a particularly large volume... :grinbig:

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