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> Awakened characters: Will you give them Cyber?, For that matter, will you give them Bio?
CanvasBack
post Feb 10 2005, 05:35 AM
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I have played norms, I've played Awakened, and even one 'groggy'...

But I confess to never giving any magic using type cyber. I've always seen it as a bad idea I guess. However, from reading these forums frequently it seems like some folks to get a few unatural enhancements at chargen (or beyond). It does seem like SR3 allows Awakened to compensate for Magic loss much more liberally than previous editions.

To the meat of the matter: Do you give your magically active characters cyberware or bioware enhancements? Underwhat circumstances? Does this decision have more or less to do with the character's background? Does it have more to do with the game situation after play starts? How many enhancements do you get? Do you simply find having a datajack and some headware memory essential to 21st century living or is half of your body replacement parts? Finally, what is the motivating factor of cybering up your mage/shaman/adept?


Thanks to anyone that replies. I might have made a poll but I decided that it would be better if people just threw in their 2 :nuyen: .


:cyber:
8)
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 10 2005, 05:43 AM
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Depends on who the character is. The closer the character's personality is to mine, the more likely he or she is to be loaded up on cyber and bio. I rarely expend more than three and a half points of Essence in my Awakened, though.

~J
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mfb
post Feb 10 2005, 05:48 AM
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rarely. it just doesn't tend to fit my character concepts. i do have one fairly heavily-cybered physad, but that was for medical reasons rather than personal choice (her Awakenedness was actually discovered during the implantation surgery). the only other cyberAwakened char i have is a 300-karma ex-blood mage. he's got a trauma damper and some other 'ware, as i recall. i've only played him once, and i didn't really get into him, so he's probably made his first and last appearance.
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Smiley
post Feb 10 2005, 05:50 AM
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Why NOT give them cyber and bio? They can only take their starting character so far and the GM can always adjust the threat level accordingly. I play awakened characters almost exclusively and I've never been denied cyber or bio. If the availability allows, it shouldn't matter if the character is a street sam or a street mage. My opinion is (and don't take this personally), if you can't handle a magically active charater with the bodily enhancements that are available to everyone, you should probably re-evaluate yourself as a GM. There are ALWAYS ways to challenge the players. A few dice this way or that really shouldn't be game breaking, if you're doing you GM duties effectively.
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CanvasBack
post Feb 10 2005, 05:53 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Feb 10 2005, 12:43 AM)
Depends on who the character is. The closer the character's personality is to mine, the more likely he or she is to be loaded up on cyber and bio. I rarely expend more than three and a half points of Essence in my Awakened, though.

~J

Ok, I want to explore this a bit.

You set the limit on essence you're willing to give up as 3.5?

Why is that the magic number? And since you say you rarely exceed it, that implies at times you do. What circumstances would make you consider exceeding it?

Care to enlighten?


:D
-----------------------------

Edit for Smiley


I'm really not interested in the GM perspective on this issue, I'm more concerned with the player's perspective on this since the players themselves create the character. Giving cyber to the Awakened is not against the rules and no decent GM would deny PCs this option if the player understands the full consequences under the rules. That being said, I've never seen it as an advantage worth taking up as a player and my query is based on curiosity. Finally, why are you trying to pick a fight with me? No, wait, I don't care, please try to be civil. Thanks.
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Fortune
post Feb 10 2005, 05:58 AM
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Most of my Awakened characters have some kind of implants, be that Bio or Cyber (usually tending towards Bioware though).

I almost never Geas the magic loss though. It just isn't worth it in the long run.
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Lindt
post Feb 10 2005, 05:58 AM
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All depends on the concept. Most are non chromed, but once in a while...
Examples: Thumper was a edge combat adept. Spent all of his magic points on boosting skills and a few extra tricks. Noticed he still had 1d6+5 init. Which is a bad thing for a knife fighter. So I broke the bank, got wired 2 alpha, a trigger, and a sub-dermal datajack (exactly 3 ess I think). Much MUCH more effective, and still belivable. Sure he was geased pretty hard, but in HIS mind, it was worth it.
Second example: Shamen who ended up as a sharpshooter. After loosing the 9k pair of smartlink-shades for the 3rd time, decided to bite the bullet, had a Beta SL2 installed. Being a polecat shamen, it was pretty approprate.
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CanvasBack
post Feb 10 2005, 06:11 AM
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Hmmm, Lindt takes first prize so far in explaining this issue. mfb gave some helpful details.

Fortune raises the issue of not using a Geas to cope with the magic loss which Lindt ended up doing. How much magic loss do you consider acceptable Fortune?
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Fortune
post Feb 10 2005, 06:18 AM
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It depends on the character (obviously). At chargen, usually only a point, or two at the very most. Later on though, after an Initiate Grade or three, Magic Points become more expendable.
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 10 2005, 06:18 AM
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QUOTE (CanvasBack)
Ok, I want to explore this a bit.

Why not? :D

QUOTE
You set the limit on essence you're willing to give up as 3.5?

Why is that the magic number?


Still enough weak flesh to present to the masses as evidence of being human :grinbig: nah, that's just what my usual desired loadouts that don't involve VCR-3s take up at max.

QUOTE
And since you say you rarely exceed it, that implies at times you do.  What circumstances would make you consider exceeding it?


I like VCRs. Really like them. If I had the cred and they had the tech, I'd probably drop for a VCR-3 in a second. VCR-3s, even alphawared, take up more than 3.5 points. I might scale down for a VCR-2 for cost reasons and to get myself away from that precipice, but even then, there's so much else to explore.

However, I'm not sure I'd make that much of a sacrifice if I were Awakened in real life, so it all depends on which part of me is closer to the forefront.

~J
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Smiley
post Feb 10 2005, 06:21 AM
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QUOTE (CanvasBack @ Feb 10 2005, 01:53 AM)
I'm really not interested in the GM perspective on this issue, I'm more concerned with the player's perspective on this since the players themselves create the character.  Giving cyber to the Awakened is not against the rules and no decent GM would deny PCs this option if the player understands the full consequences under the rules.  That being said, I've never seen it as an advantage worth taking up as a player and my query is based on curiosity.  Finally, why are you trying to pick a fight with me?  No, wait, I don't care, please try to be civil.  Thanks.

I'm honestly not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone, and I miss the part in my last post that was un-civil. I posted my opinions, which is what this site is designed for. I didn't personally attack you or anyone, and, in fact, urged the readers of my post not to take it personally. Also, the majority of the posters on this site are GMs so you'll probably get the GM perspective no matter what. The reason players, as awakened characters, take bioware is probably because you can take 2 points' worth with one geas. Sure, cyberware takes away from the magic rating, but show me a gun adept that wouldn't benefit from a Smartlink II and a base 2 TN. Cyber- and Bioware offer obvious benefits, whether you're magically active or not.
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Eyeless Blond
post Feb 10 2005, 06:23 AM
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I take a little Cyber and/or Bio in just about every Awakened I build. I nearly always take a Geas or two to offset it; in fact, it's the Geas I like more often than the cyberware really. Geasea are a great way to add a bit of personality to the mechanics of your Awakened characters. For instance, I have a decker/shamanist that I'm playing on this board who geased his cybereyes with a glasses Talisman. The concept of a guy with mechanical eyes wearing glasses just seems like a cool and unique image to me.

I only wish there were other ways you could add Geasea to mage characters rather than cyber/bio-related loss. Maybe add them as limitations on spells or something?
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Aes
post Feb 10 2005, 06:30 AM
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I don't play too many awakened myself -- Tried a few, didn't like it all too much -- but at the very least, you could consider losing 1 magic point on muscle aug/toner. 5 levels combined will only lose you 5 mp and set you up with 10 bps worth for skills/pther attributes/cash. It all depends on the character concept of course, but burning one or two magic points seems a small price to pay for a package of all the nice low-karma-cost things. Cyberforearm w. smartlink, orientation system, artificial quickness, DNI, datajack and optical chip anyone? :cyber:
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Kagetenshi
post Feb 10 2005, 06:34 AM
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Doc Funk allows just that. The Geas ordeal also provides opportunities.

~J
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CanvasBack
post Feb 10 2005, 06:43 AM
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I don't know Smiley, your first post seemed pretty confrontational, despite your initial disclaimer.


QUOTE (Smiley)
My opinion is (and don't take this personally), if you can't handle a magically active charater with the bodily enhancements that are available to everyone, you should probably re-evaluate yourself as a GM.



You see, it almost makes it worse when you qualify a statement like this. Ever notice when somebody says "No offense but..." they go on to say something offensive? If you say something personal, don't expect me not to take it personally. You questioned my skill as a GM for what turns out to be very spurious reasons given the nature of my set of questions. I haven't been a GM for about a year and I have no doubt that I would have to do some serious brushing up, but I don't think I'll be re-evaluating myself as a GM. And I might add, everyone else seemed to get where I was coming from or at least contributed what they thought I wanted to know. Hopefully, most GMs have had the chance to play, knowing the player's perspective is a highly valuable, if not essential tool of a good GM.

On a more positive note, even though I did play in a group with a gun adept who did exactly as he (Smiley) described, someone else might actually learn something from Smiley's second post about the issue at hand. The same could be said for his comment on bioware. So thanks for posting and I'll take your word that you didn't mean any offense. :)
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Smiley
post Feb 10 2005, 06:56 AM
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QUOTE (CanvasBack @ Feb 10 2005, 02:43 AM)
You see, it almost makes it worse when you qualify a statement like this. Ever notice when somebody says "No offense but..." they go on to say something offensive? If you say something personal, don't expect me not to take it personally. You questioned my skill as a GM for what turns out to be very spurious reasons given the nature of my set of questions. I haven't been a GM for about a year and I have no doubt that I would have to do some serious brushing up, but I don't think I'll be re-evaluating myself as a GM. And I might add, everyone else seemed to get where I was coming from or at least contributed what they thought I wanted to know.

I wasn't attacking you personally, no matter how you choose to take it. I never questioned your validity as a GM, either. Also, I must point out that nobody took offense but you. I made a general statement that reflected my opinion and if you decide to take it personally, that's up to you. I never questioned your GM skills, nor anybody else's. If you post a topic on an open forum, don't be surprised if every response isn't exactly what you expected to hear. By your own admission, you threw it open to everyone's 2 :nuyen: worth, and I gave mine. If it isn't what you were looking for, I'm sorry.
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TeOdio
post Feb 10 2005, 07:40 AM
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Since I GM 99% of the time in any sort of Shadowrun Stuff I do, I'll throw out my 2 :nuyen: worth. Drain is drain, whether it is physical, or stun. Most Mages create their characters and spells with the idea that taking drain is bad (Why you have a lot of odd numbered force spells, where rounding down is good for a Player). A lesser magic rating can still affect certain spell attributes, but in the end, if you take drain, it still sucks, whether it is Physical or Stun. The twinkie truth is, you have options to heal physical drain much better and faster than healing Stun (Stim Patches Bad!) Why not load up a mage with skill wires, or a smart gun link. Most security and combat mages have a bit of cyber to them. If your concept allows for it, go for it. I think it gives you the best of both worlds. You won't be as great as a pure mage, or as tough as a Street Sam, but you'll be able to complement both equally as well.
:nuyen: :nuyen: :nuyen:
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tisoz
post Feb 10 2005, 07:50 AM
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There is usually some kind of cyber or bio that is just to good to pass up for your character's focus. If it's slinging spells or conjuring spirits, a trauma damper is like getting two automatic successes on your drain test. Smartlinks are so good and cheap they are unbalancing to the point anyone who uses a gun has probably considered getting one.

Since the magically active are basically karma whores, the mnemonic enhancer looks like a good way to shave some karma every time you raise a skill. If you have a knowledge or language skill as a centering skill, you just got 1 or 3 more points worth of it.

I like to keep the non-adepts with at least a magic of 4, preferably 5 and after initiating keep it under 9. Since I have a chance to lose a point of magic any time from making a test for magic loss, I'd rather keep it in the makable range.
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Traks
post Feb 10 2005, 08:41 AM
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I will never be able to play in Shadowrun game *sniff* so there are my as GM's thoughts. My mage/adept players haven't used any cyber yet. No bioware in game, will be added few books later :) I would not mind them taking some it though, if they can rationalise why. I am pretty liberal with my players and do not write notes to pass to players "Your mage installed toxin filters. Now mages for purity have captured you and are removing them, with only a knife."

So if they want, they can. I dislike a little bit it, but I understand that some just want more power. Like adepts, which have lost in couple of duels and want to be faster, believing that it will help next time. Usually it is to compensate for something a character perceives as failure/lack of.
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Grinder
post Feb 10 2005, 09:55 AM
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I rarely met an awakend character with cyber or bioware. Hell, even our powergaming loving guy hasn't done it until now. :)
It would be ok if the character concept "allows" the use of implants. Why not a hermetic with headware memory and a datajack? Or a close combat-physad with trauma damper and spurs?
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The White Dwarf
post Feb 10 2005, 10:03 AM
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Awakened characters get cyber under 2 conditions:

The cyber fits with and aids the character concept in a meaningful way
Its appearance can be justified in the story and the actions of the character

Example, an Eagle shaman winds up with cybereyes to help his vision. Ok makes sense. He offsets it with a geas of the chanting varity, having to cry like an eagle to cast magic. Again makes sense. Vision mods help with magic targeting so its useful to the concept, and its appearance fits cleanly using in-game reasons.

Long as that case can be made, it goes in. Usually 2 pts or less, past that it tends to start hurting more than helping.
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Capt. Dave
post Feb 10 2005, 10:06 AM
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I'll give an Awakened character bioware any day of the week.
Enhanced Artwinkulation on adepts is a huge bonus, as is Suprathyroid Gland
Mnemonic Enhancers, Pain Editors, Cerebral Boosters are all great on a magician.

I'm generally against cyber for awakened characters, as the Essence loss is generally unacceptable. 1 point of essence vs. 2 point of Bio Index for a point of magic loss is not worth it, IMHO.

It seems to me that a magical character would be less averse to implants of natural improvements to existing tissue (especially cultured) than cold, life-force robbing metal/plasteel implants.

But that's just me. :)
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Grinder
post Feb 10 2005, 10:09 AM
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QUOTE (Capt. Dave)

I'm generally against cyber for awakened characters, as the Essence loss is generally unacceptable. 1 point of essence vs. 2 point of Bio Index for a point of magic loss is not worth it, IMHO.


We don't use it that way. In terms of magic loss, 1 point bioware equals 1 point cyberware.
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Capt. Dave
post Feb 10 2005, 10:12 AM
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QUOTE (Grinder)
QUOTE (Capt. Dave @ Feb 10 2005, 11:06 AM)

I'm generally against cyber for awakened characters, as the Essence loss is generally unacceptable. 1 point of essence vs. 2 point of Bio Index for a point of magic loss is not worth it, IMHO.


We don't use it that way. In terms of magic loss, 1 point bioware equals 1 point cyberware.

Good for you.
Using that houserule, it's a tad more even. I'd still go with bioware using those rules, though.
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Capt. Dave
post Feb 10 2005, 10:13 AM
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Confound double post... :S
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