Awakened characters: Will you give them Cyber?

Awakened characters: Will you give them Cyber?, For that matter, will you give them Bio?

Rev View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 06:15 PM Post #51
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034	Like most people I do when it fits the charachter, and for most of the shadowrunner magical guys a little bioware and maybe a very little cyberware fits fine. Sometimes I would geas the loss, sometimes I would not. I think the time I would not do so for sure would be a shaman with a nature totem. With the urban ones it seems entirely appropriate that they be a blend of the technological and the magical, especially with bioware which doesn't hit thier essence at all and only slightly impacts thier magic. I had a stealth physad with 1-2 points of cyber and bioware before the half magic loss thing too. My primary reason for doing so was usually to get a bit of sensory enhancement, and initiative over 10 so I could hide then cast a spell. Then once I am loosing a magic anyway I will pile on enhanced articulation for a physad or cerebral booster-2 for a mage just because it doesn't matter and I am overflowing with money (if its a game where the tech charachters can buy anything).

hahnsoo

Feb 10 2005, 06:16 PM

Post #52

Mr. Johnson

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QUOTE (DrJest)

The gun adept I'm using to try and get into a game at the moment is a dual pistol wielder following the Magician's Way with an Enhance Aim at Force 4 (a Personal Extended version if a GM will permit it) on a sustaining focus. Smartlink II would do him no good at all because you can't use SL or laser sights when dual-wielding :)

Holy crap. That's almost identical to the character I'm playing...

shadow_scholar

Feb 10 2005, 06:33 PM

Post #53

Moving Target

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QUOTE ("DrJest")

Not that I want to cause trouble for your players, but you, uh, you know a synaptic accelerator and boosted reflexes are compatible, right?

QUOTE ("Moon-Hawk")

Add reaction enhancers to that. It's a pretty slick combo.

Synaptic accelerator and boosted reflexes aren't quite as fast as wires on the average, but they do have a higher high-end roll.

Interesting. I just always figured that anything that raised initiative dice wasn't compatible with anything else that raised initiative dice. I guess if you allow it then Boosted Reflexes does become useful, but the way I play the only reason I'd take 'em is because they're cheap. That whole permanent thing always turned me off of them. But what you guys are sayin' makes sense, but nah, I wouldn't do that to my players, instead I might just give the adept Quick Strike and Distance Strike to try and knock out the superfast Sammy in one shot before he gets to go.

DrJest

Feb 10 2005, 06:53 PM

Post #54

Running Target

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QUOTE

just always figured that anything that raised initiative dice wasn't compatible with anything else that raised initiative dice. I guess if you allow it then Boosted Reflexes does become useful

I used to think the same, but I was corrected by a number of Dumpshockers. It seems that the SA and BR are the only compatible reflex enhancers (barring reaction increase, which doesn't count)

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 06:56 PM Post #55
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Why don't reaction enhancers count?

DrJest View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 06:59 PM Post #56
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722	Because they enhance reaction, not reflexes. A small but significant difference :) Reaction enhancer can go with wired reflexes, synaptic accelerator and boosted reflexes; however they can't go with MBW or (I believe) adept increased reflexes.

Smiley View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:01 PM Post #57
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191	Nothing works with Adept increased reflexes. Once you get to level 3, you're done (unfortunately). How I wish they could be stacked...

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:04 PM Post #58
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Oh, I see the distinction you're making now.

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:04 PM Post #59
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	I think Move-by-Wire needs to be pumped a bit, personally. Especially given its drawbacks, it should be more uncontestedly the king of enhancements even at the lower levels IMO. ~J

DrJest View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:06 PM Post #60
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722	Either that or reduce the essence cost a little. You can't have MBW4 without going to a clinic anyway :) I don't know, what did you have in mind

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:07 PM Post #61
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Well the extra actions from rating 3 and 4 MBW are pretty powerful. Now that you mention it, I've never really seen anyone/thing take low level MBW. Their either a PC looking for moderate speed and they take something else, or they're a super cyberzombie and they've got MBW 3 or 4. The cancer tests really aren't that bad for low level MBW.

DrJest View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:14 PM Post #62
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722	Just looking at them via the NSRCG briefly (always a good source of quick and dirty info :) ) the comparison between MBW 2 and WR 2 is minor. MBW 2 has +2 quickness over its counterpart, that's all. For which it costs 500K as opposed to 165K, and 4 essence vs 3 essence. Muscle Toner 2 bioware would cost you an extra 50K and 0.8 bio index (admittedly Muscle Replacement 2 would cost you 2 extra essence for a total cost of 5 vs the 4, but with +2 strength thrown in... you're better off getting toner and augmentation together). kage's right, MBW at less than 3 is a very poor deal

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:16 PM Post #63
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Don't forget the +2 dice for stealth and athletics tests.

Shockwave_IIc View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:19 PM Post #64
Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499	Your missing +Lvl increase to Stealth and Athletics. Though being as your using NSRCG it's not surprising.

DrJest View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:19 PM Post #65
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722	I had indeed forgotten that. On the other hand, Enhanced articulation... meh, this could easily get out of control :)

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:26 PM Post #66
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	With the muscle toner you get the advantage of it being natural for purposes of skill upgrades, and the enhanced articulation still keeps it under the total impact of the 'ware. For the price difference, I don't think even the two dice are worth it. ~J

DrJest View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:27 PM Post #67
Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722	Oh, btw - Boosted Reflexes 3 plus Synaptic Accelerator 2 plus Reaction Enhancement 6 = +8 reaction and +4d6 initiative for a cost of 4.6 essence, 1 bio index, and 650k nuyen. Add another 90k nuyen to alpha the Boosted Reflexes gives you 740k nuyen but 4.04 in essence. It ain't MBW 4, but for a cheap and cheerful alternative it delivers some pretty good performance. Add Enhanced Articulation for 0.6 bio and 40k nuyen, and you're pushing even closer to the MBW performance level. Yeah, Kage's right - MBW needs some loving. EDIT: Reflex recorders cost a paltry 0.25 bio index and 25k nuyen. Getting closer...

Moon-Hawk View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 07:28 PM Post #68
Genuine Artificial Intelligence Group: Members Posts: 4,019 Joined: 12-June 03 Member No.: 4,715	Maybe that's something for SOTA2065. MBW costs are halved due to advances in the technology; or some such.

KeyMasterOfGozer View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 10:46 PM Post #69
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 239 Joined: 10-February 04 Member No.: 6,068	My Opinion: You have to of course follow what your character would do, because you must balance Magic Loss versus other gains. I imagin lots of Magic users would not like to loose any power, but if you are a runner, you have to think strategically for your livelyhood. Sort of like Prostitution. You may have to give up something to make your way off the streets. We have several street shamans that have gotten a Trauma Damper/Pain Editor combo. This uses up half of one magic point, and it allows them to ignore all Light Stun Wounds, which means they have to get 2 less successes on their Drain test to take no drain. That's a huge advantage in combat. Then if they get some stun damage from casting spells, they can switch to the pain editor and ignore them to reduce TN mods for an important spell or two. They can then spend 1 more Bioware point or .5 Cyber Essence points one misc other stuff. Some people say PhysAds are too powerful, but in looking at min-maxing some characters, it is better for a PhysAd (Dice Perspective) to Initiate and rather than spending that SpellPoint on PhysAd skills, it's better to get equivalent Bioware. You get more bang for your Magic Pont Buck. Then when you've maxed out your Bioware, you can still continue to Initiate further and get your PhysAd Powers to keep amplifying your power.

tisoz

Feb 10 2005, 11:01 PM

Post #70

Free Spirit

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QUOTE (shadow_scholar)

But right now I'm creating one to be used as opposition for the PCs and that errata about Bioware opens up new territory. Last night planning the guy out I was torn between going with the expensive Improved Refexes 2 or just getting him a Synaptic Accelerator 2 (and losing 1 pt of magic) but since I found out about the errata, I'll definitely go with the Syn Accelerator to buy him some more juicy toys.

As for the gun adepts stuff, I always found using a Smart Link II much more beneficial than using two guns. You get all those recoil mods (if you don't compensate) and you raise you TNs too much for using two weapons, but then again I never used the magical enhance aim. The main reason I always dug Smart Link II so much was because of the negligible +2 TN it adds to called shots. Basically you set your TNs at the regular base 4 (-2 for Smartlink and +2 for Called Shot) but you raise the damage level by one category, and you get to aim for spots not covered by armor. Run some nice EX Explosive ammo or even flechette and aim for the head and they're typically toast, unless they've got bone lacing or some form of skin armor, which is rare.

Since you were not aware of the errata, I wonder if you realize when you call a shot you get the option of either bypassing armor or increasing the damage level. Not both.

Drain Brain View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 11:38 PM Post #71
The Sewer Jockey Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 857 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Kent, United Kingdom Member No.: 1,197	I almost invariably go with some form of cyber for the awakened - either at chargen if I can afford it, or later. Smartlinks almost universal (for those "too drained" or "trying a mundane bluff" moments) but more so is the image link/chipjack combo for hermetic mages - library in your head! Woohoo! I was always a fan of the "combining magic with cyber" route, ever since I saw the "combat mage" archetype in the SR2 core book. He was cool. I am happy with losing a point of magic (and I NEVER geas ANYTHING for ANY CHARACTER. Don't like the thought of the restiction - I'd rather take teh loss and try real hard to initiate) in return for the happies I get from playing "hey, I'm mundane" with the "Geek the mage first" crowd. Look, I've got a 'jack and a smartlink, I'm a Sammi-lite! Leave me alone!

Kagetenshi View Member Profile	Feb 10 2005, 11:40 PM Post #72
Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,013 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802	Drain Brain brings up a good point. Obvious cyber (cyberarm, cyberskull, or cybereyes anyone?) can be quite useful in lending the impression that one is not, in fact, the mage. ~J

Rev View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 12:01 AM Post #73
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034	The other thing that is good about MBW 1 & 2 is that the quickness enhancement is cybernetic, so it can exceed the racial max (heh or whatever the top limit for bioware is called, I can never remember if it is the max or the limit) so a human can get 10-11 quickness. Doesn't help reaction again though, only combat pool and movement. Not skill costs either, as I recall.

shadow_scholar

Feb 11 2005, 12:08 AM

Post #74

Moving Target

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QUOTE (tisoz)

Since you were not aware of the errata, I wonder if you realize when you call a shot you get the option of either bypassing armor or increasing the damage level. Not both.

No, I wasn't aware of that. I'm gonna have to do some more reading.

But honestly, I think that sounds lame. A called shot is exactly that, I call where I want my shot to go. I would aim my shots at the head to eliminate the body armor and to cause more damage. If they've got dermal armor or bonelacing then that would still affect the power of the attack, but shooting someone in the head is going to be more devastating than just aiming for their torso and hoping I hit a spot that will cause some serious damage instead of just passing through.

What if I want to shoot something specific, like a detonator a baddie is holding in his hand, and try to disable it with a bullet? Yeah, aside from the questioning wisdom in my shot it sounds to me like I couldn't target that detonator specifically under the rule you stated, I just have the chance to do more damage to the guy or just bypass his armor.

tisoz View Member Profile	Feb 11 2005, 12:43 AM Post #75
Free Spirit Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,950 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Bloomington, IN UCAS Member No.: 1,920	Targeting a specific part is different than the called shot mechanic. There are several discussions about the 'called shot'. Check too, the ones about the abstract armor system and about hit location. It's all been talked about quite a bit before.

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