On quickening., quickened spells are their astral links. Options

[Sunday_Gamer]

Course that should read "spells AND their astral links..."

What becomes of the astral link between spell and caster after quickening?
Is it severed or is there a permanent trackable link between a spell and it's creator?

Discuss.

Sunday.

[Curugul]

Severed.


Curugul

ps. Quickened spells remain broke, hassle and wards or no hassle and wards.

[Sphynx]

Until or Unless you change your Astral Signature, any spell you cast will share your Astral Signature and thus be a link to you. Page 172 even states that you can never ever erase the Astral Signature of a spell.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Guys,

Sphynx is correct which is why mages almost never quicken spells on anyone or anything other than themselves. However, there are ways to get around this:

1. You can (as Sphynx already noted) change your astral signature.

2. You can force that linkage into an astral quest which effectively severs the link to all be initiate grade mages and usually high level initiate mages because astral quests are deadly....often very deadly.

-Polaris

[Strobe]

What about clensing? I suppose that would clear the spell as well, but it does get rid of the sig left after a spell is cast.

pg.74 MitS

-Strobe

[Sphynx]

Doesn't help to Cleanse if the spell remains. The page 74 you mentioned says "For cleansing to be effective, the cause ... must first be removed." So for Cleansing to work, the spell can't be Quickened anymore.

Secondly, the ... I left out is "of the background count" which is completely different from Astral Signature. Cleansing doesn't effect Astral Signatures. To remove Astral Signatures, read page 172 of SR3, and even there it says you can't use that technique against spells.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

Cleansing does eliminate all astral signatures including spell signatures. The metamagic technique states this. Of course it does not alter (and can not alter) the signature of an ungoing spell, but it will foil any magical forensics.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Yeah, that's one of dem der points I usually try to avoid because our interpretation is different form the norm. The book says that astral signatures attached to a background count are cleaned up. Still requiring there to be a background count. I realize this is our interpretation and I don't try to convince people it's the "right" way, but just for the record, it never states that it cleanses all astral signatures in an area, just those attached to a background count.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

OK, but that is a non-standard interpretation. Bleeding a bit over from another thread, you do realize that if *you* are the source of the background count (quickened spells), then one cleansing action *will* eliminate the signatures of all your spells (since they are attachted to you rather intimately). In addition to that, if you have filtering (and you should if you have cleansing), you are not affected by background count at all (at least for long enough periods that it makes no difference).

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

I am aware that by standard interpretation, "one cleansing action *will* eliminate the signatures of all your spells" as far as the debris left behind, but not the signature on the spells themselves.

However, you can't be IN the area you're cleansing, since the book states: "For cleansing to be effective, the cause of the background count must first be removed."

Sphynx

PS. Since you tend to agree that non-standard interpretations shouldn't be used... maybe accepting that you can't use Increase Attribute on Decrease Attribute for better successes isn't allowed either (the standard interpretation). :P

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

Sorry but no. My interpretation of Decrease and Increase attribute spells is the canonical standard interpretation. It might not be popular here, but that is what the books state. There is nothing in the spell that says that the two spells can not be stacked that way, and the descriptions of the spells themselves imply that they can.

Just because my opinion may not be popular here, does not make it wrong or non-standard.

-Polaris

[Sphynx]

Very well, then you are wrong about cleansing of astral signatures on areas which do not have the astral signature attached to a background count.

The ONLY think about cleansing Astral Signatures under Cleansing states: Cleansing background count also erases any other astral traces and signatures associated with the background count.

That's canonical. So no, you can't cleanse an area of Astral Signatures unless you also accept that casting (or sustaining of) spells creates a Background Count, which you also fervishly deny.

Sphynx

[Polaris]

Sphynx,

This is Paul Harvey with the rest of the story. Actually if you read the rest of the cleansing metamagic including the example, then it would seem that I am correct or at least it is not as clear cut as you are trying to make it.

I will quote the relevant text on page 74 MITS:

[Sphynx]

The point remains though, that without a Background Count, there is no Cleansing. By-The-Book, you can only remove Astral Signatures attached to a Background Count. Period.

Sphynx

[Sunday_Gamer]

okie dokie...so let's see where we stand shall we?

On one side, Cur suggests the trace is severed.
Now as far as I know, the spell will always have your astral signature, and that means someone ascensing the focus could see said signature, but is there a trail?
Is there an "invisible" astral thread forever linking the caster with his spell? Can someone see a quickened spell and follow it back to the mage who cast it?

On a side note, cleansing in our games is designed to counter background count. It will not remove astral signatures unless those signatures are related and/or incorporated into the background count in question.

Keep discussing =)

Sunday.

[Curugul]

[The White Dwarf]

*jumps into the fire*

Ok, as I understood it, the *casting* of a spell created the (temporary) signature of the spell. Thus a mage could take an action to clear that away if desired.

Now, Cleansing is basically a bigger version of that innate ability, that lets you act to remove background count (which is more powerful than a simple signature).

Thus, assuming the source of the signature/background count is no longer active or present, between those two you could remove it regardless of the details. Either its background count, so the technique gets it; or its not, and you can clear it anyhow.

Which means the only discrepency is what occurs if the source is still there. Now, this is how I read it: If a spell is quickened/sustained/maintained on the guy clearing up astral space, the space is still clean even though he is in it. Why? Because its clear that its the *casting* of a spell which creates the trace, not the maintainence.

The only potential conflict is that the maintained magics may create the background count again, but that would (probably) take at least an hour, yes? Which means that astral space should be clear for at least that long.

So it seems regardless of the specifics of one ability, there is another which covers the gaps, making it irrelevent which does what because if you have both you can do both.

Oh, and if you quicken a spell there is indeed a link to the caster, as mentioned above.

[Sunday_Gamer]

Well White pretty much sums up where I stood before I started asking questions.

It had been suggested to me that a mage could quickened spells on others and walk away clean, after removing his astral signature from the area where he cast the spell.

I argued that there would forever be a link, visible by ascensing mages and trackable, connecting the caster to the spell. Meaning only a total tool of a mage would quicken a spell and then let it walk away to do whatever it wants.

This discussion reinforces this belief.

Sunday.

[Talia Invierno]

So far as I knew, astral links were not severed by astral quests except insofar as watchers were no longer capable of following them. I had understood that the best an astral quest could do was to conceal the link ... with an astral quest of corresponding difficulty to trace it thereafter ...?

[Polaris]

Talia,

It was my understanding that while an Astral Quest did not sever the link, it forced anyone that wanted to track you using it through a fun-filled ride through the metaplanes (which for most magicians effectively severs it).

-Polaris

[Sunday_Gamer]

Polaris is correct as far as I know. Astral quests essentially reroutes the trace, making it pass through the meta planes.

It means only an initiate can track the trace, since only an initiate can enter the meta places. It also means a happy jaunt through the meta planes and all the yeah yeah happy happy those entail.

But it does not "severe" the link.

Sunday.

[The White Dwarf]

Heh, I think were all in agreement ... enjoy the peace =)

[Talia Invierno]

:D [/Kodak moment]