 Submitted here, for some feedback, The Shadowrun version of The Punisher |
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 Feb 15 2005, 09:31 PM
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#26
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Traumatizing players since 1992  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220  |
Mo********er. Thou shall not bring that up. Silence ;) Seriously the original comic book origin kind of has more emotional impact in that it was a random crime. Frank was up for the congressional medal of honor, and he was starting a career as a special forces trainer when his family was gunned down for no reason other than they were there at the wrong time. I thought the randomness of it was good because it was an allegory to the chaos of violence, that not everything has a cause. The movie version with a wife and kids makes for a better story in a movie but changed the character slightly attitude wise. The origin story for Frank currently was a miniseries of 4 comics about a year or so ago called Born, which gave us some insige into what happned to him in vietnam. This man killed people because he liked it. Becoming The Punisher was almost inevitable, as for him killing folks is what he does. He just channels that energy in a (good?) direction. Either way the character doesn't translate well as a runner because if Frank does have a serious personality flaw it's his rabid obsession with protecting the innocent. His real underlying justification is to kill those who harm others. Innocents are to be protected at all costs. I'd make that a compulsion. That makes running the shadows difficult without some inherint personality alteration because Frank would kill the everloving hell out of folks that would kill security guards in the comission of a felony breaking and entering. SR's ARE the folks he goes after. I could potentially see this working with him not using lethal force against gaurds as long as his teammates NEVER kill an innocent. Frank isn't above killing a lifelong friend outright just because they make a wrong move. This man has absolutely no conscience in our definition of the word. There is no mercy, there is no negotiation, there is only death. The speed of which is determined by your usefulness to him. It's actually harder to play him right than you would think. Allrighty, I'm gonna go DL the NSRCG ;) |
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Feb 15 2005, 10:07 PM
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#27
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
Wow.
Are there any comic adaptations that actually show The Punisher as the hero he is rather than some psychopath? In the movie, he struck me as a "Boondock Saints" sorta guy; is he like that in any comic adaptations? In any case, yeah he might not work well in a conventional game, but if the GM decides to do some alternate form of game, it could work. |
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Feb 15 2005, 10:23 PM
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#28
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
it varies. he's never really been portrayed as a "good guy", though. i mean, yeah, he fights bad guys--but he's a dirty bastard about it. always has been.
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Feb 16 2005, 12:35 AM
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#29
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Let's not delude ourselves, anyone that serts out to kill other humans for whatever reason is already a little off psychologically.
Yes, he only hunts criminals. Yes he tortures burns, kills and does whatever is neccesary to kill them. But he has a VERY big point about making sure no innocents are hurt, and god help you if you shoot inocents and he finds out about it. Ultimately the ends justify the means in that he reduces crime but he is by no means a hero. He is an anti-hero. Even in the movie he isn't a good guy. He sets out at the end of the film to set up shop where needed to massacre those to do wrong unto others. He's not exactly doing it for altruistic reasons although if you really want to you can think that he is doing it so that noone else has to suffer the loss of loved ones like he has as long as he can do anything about it. That was so long ago though now it's what he does because it's just what he does. Some people do taxes, some wash cars, he kills people. He's probably far more ruthless than even any bad guy or villian from about any comic book or movie I can even remember, his energies are just directed in a more "acceptable" direction. As a note, his street rep is huge. most cop's wont arrest them, and most bounty hunters won't even try because they like living. He's probably easily got a few thousand karma, probably more than that. He's not a well rounded character. He has combat skills, interrogation and intimidation, and thats about it. And he's now been killing people (counting military service) for 37 or so years, and he doesn't take days off except to heal. He's a karma earning freight train of judgement... or rather punishment. Even in the movie he's not a good guy, he's just the protagonist. There's a difference. |
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Feb 16 2005, 12:49 AM
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#30
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
Well put BitBasher.
If you're going off the game, you'll have to give him "Killing people with things in the background" as a skill. Also, he should have way more guns than a shotgun, a rifle, and a pistol. |
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Feb 16 2005, 02:07 AM
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#31
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,353 Joined: 5-June 02 Member No.: 2,840 |
"antihero, n.
A main character in a dramatic or narrative work who is characterized by a lack of traditional heroic qualities, such as idealism or courage." Judging by that definition (from dictionary.com), I don't know if I'd say The Punisher is an anti-hero. He's certainly idealistic (both about killing criminal scum and not killing innocents), and he's not lacking in courage. And I'm sure many people that saw the movie let out an internal cheer when he laid down the law, so at least to them he's a hero. Sure, the way he goes about getting justice isn't for the squeamish, but I dunno if that alone makes him an anti-hero. In any case: I'm aware that I don't have all the skills and/or equipment The Punisher has yet, but keep in mind, this is a starting character. Just think of this as The Punisher starting out. I still need to pick up the interrogation skill, but I figured combat skills were more important at this stage. Also, as far as the electronics skill: the way I see it, his electronically-minded contacts and friends tell him enough about how to use it that it makes up for his deficiencies with them. I'll purchase that skill too, if I ever get to play this guy. |
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Feb 16 2005, 02:23 AM
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#32
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Hmm, well that definition is more than a little lame. Frank Castle was one of the first antiheros of comic-book-dom, considered so by almost every comic book writer and artist. The real definition of what an anti-hero is, is someone who feels the ends justify the means. The road to one's goal matters little. The goal is all important. |
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Feb 16 2005, 03:25 AM
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#33
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Frank Castle is in no way, shape or form an "antihero." Likewise, nor are any of the "dark fated, dark souled warriors" that hear about so often here.
An antihero is pretty much an everyday loser. Not a super powered killer. Go read "Death of a Salesman," if you want a real antihero. Don't show me your badass killer with no morals. If comic book writers and artists say Frank Castle is an antihero, they are wrong. Sorry. They should read more. A dictionary would be a good start. Not knowing how to properly use a word is no excuse for coining an inappropriate catch phrase. All "villians" posess heroic traits, therefore, they are not "antiheros" I'm a "your ends justify your means," kind of guy and I'm waaaaaay more of an antihero than Frank. (See my comment on "everyday losers") ;) As for the Punisher stats, I agree that's impossible to make a comicbook hero using char gen mechanics. There just aren't enough points. HMHVV Hunter used 130 BPs and still didn't cover all the bases. No offense, its a great character but it lacks skills like "Interrogation" (possibly with the Torture spec) and "Intimidation." Both are skills that are pretty much required for Frank. Other than being 5(ish) BPs over the generally accepted limits, I like him. I see no reason he could not be a PhysAd. Not all PhysAds view their power as GREAT AND MYSTICAL. I see no reason why Frank is low essence. His detachment from "normal" society is a direct result of his personal loss. You could argue that the detachment was always there, waiting to come out and the murder of his family triggered it but...I personaly think that's weak. If we're going off the movie, he seemed like a fairly well adjusted family man. Wether Frank is a PhysAd or a Sam or a Norm with a ridiculus amount of Edges is a point of personal interpretation. Given his spec ops background (Delta Force? in the original or SF/CTU currently) I'd probably suggest a PhysAd with some chrome. There's no reason a 2060ish Frank wouldn't use an Alpha. He made fine use of an M4 with GL, there's no reason not to upgrade. |
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Feb 16 2005, 03:47 AM
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#34
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Notice how I said "of comic-book-dom", which this thread is about? I understand that the literal definition of the word is different, however he is very much what every respected writer and artist consider an anti-hero in the comic book biz. Anti-heroes, even by the true definition of the word are not your everyday loser. I don't know where you get that from. The second defintion of antihero better sums up the way comic artists refer to the word, and rightly so:
Frank Castle does not fall into the classical stereotype of a hero, because the ends justify the means. This is typically not a hero-caliber position. |
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Feb 16 2005, 04:10 AM
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#35
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Just to clarify my "Antihero" status: kevyn668 Antihero B: 4 (its probably closer to 3) Q: 4 (I'd like to say 5 but that's not realistic) S: 3 (Meh...) C: 4 (I'd like to say 5, but find that hard to believe) I: 4 (I'd like to say 5, but I have trouble with the Mensa Challenge of the day calander, so...) W: 4 (its probably closer to 3. I have trouble resisting the magical powers of strippers.) Flaw: Ends justify means (1pt) I'm not currently magicaly active I do not have any chrome or bio. I can drive a car (standard transmission included) but I am not Handsom Rob. I can operate a PC (my Google Fu is strong and that's about it) but I am not Trinity. I have had several years of martial arts training and have been in a number of RL fights (I like to think I'm batting 500 in that department. The actual number may be lower ;)) but am not Jett Lei. I can shoot a pistol or a shotgun fairly well but I am not Cho Yun Fatt. I have had girlfriends in the past but have been single for the past 3 years. The biggest recent highlight in my life was reaching "Runner" status. I spend my nights and weekends posting to a BBS dedicated to a roleplaying game. These are example traits of a "true" antihero. [/sobstory]
That's where. I'd say Frank is characterized by his ideals and courage. The same could be said for many "villans."
Even if its "comic-book-dom" which this thread is (sort of) about, that's still no excuse. They were just lazy and incorrectly used a word hoping it would catch on in popular (comic/geek) culture. Which it did, sadly. Things like superior intelligence, and/or bravery, and/or resolve, and/or stamina, and/or charm, and/or reflexes, and/or looks, and/or a magic lasso... What else makes someone "heroic"? Hell, Rainman was heroric. If a protagonist--or antagonist, for that matter--is really good at anything, he or she is not an antihero. |
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Feb 16 2005, 04:37 AM
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#36
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
While Frank Castle does have qualities of "hero" in him, he also possesses a much darker "antihero" quality to him. As a long time reader of the comic, I absolutely know this. Yes, he does possess idealism. Courage? Hmm, not so sure on that one. Despite the trite late 90's years of Punisher, most writers developed the character's mental demise. When Punisher went into urban combat, he was doing so because he had nothing left to lose. Was he a loser? No. He was effectively playing the role of the hero without actively wishing to do so. He had social problems, drinking problems, he is a man with a definite lack of heroic qualities to him. A man with little to live for... besides his insatiable vengance-bent.
Hero and Antihero are defined by the methodology of their actions. This is what is meant by their "characteristics". The definitions have nothing to do with skillsets, as it seems you're implying. Comic book writers aren't misusing the word. Your understanding of it is just too narrow. |
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Feb 16 2005, 04:51 AM
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#37
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Here's a pretty good editorial rebuttal to a Hero vs. Antihero article on RPGamer that deals with this exact issue.
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Feb 16 2005, 05:27 AM
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#38
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
Being a "dark" coldhearted killer does not make him an anithero. It actually makes him more of a hero. He has the power of will to do things that a "normal" person would not consider. He is, in fact, quite heroic. He follows his own set of morals even if those morals are not widely accepted. That in its self is heroic. Much like the the Dark Knight series of Batman.
Hmm, I always though he went into "urban combat" because he (stongly) believed those he fought desirved punishment. I don't have anything to lose, you don't see me dealing out street justice.
No (or as the French would say, "Non."). He was willingly playing the role of The Punisher. Other than his code of morals there was nothing compeling him to deal out the pain. There was nothing forcing him to hunt down criminals and kill them in nasty ways other than his "code."
So did Spiderman. Getting your one true love is problematic. Getting to class on time is problematic. Etc...
Except for his tendency to fight crime with his superior tactics, weapons, desire to deal out punishment, will to live, sense of justice, and snappy one-liners. What's not heroic about that?
Except for his insatiable vengance-bent. The goal of punishing all vile criminal scum sounds pretty heroic to me. Dirty Harry would agree, I suspect. Dirty Harry is not an Antihero either. ;)
How so? If a "villian" makes an impossible shot and takes out a "hero", is that villian not a "hero" to his fellow "villians"? Thus making him heroic?
I beg to differ. A super powered serial killer still posses "heroic qualities." The SK may be super smart or super strong, or whatever, but he sill has heroic abilities. "Anithero" is the opposite of hero. The antihero lacks heroric qualites. Qualities such as intelligence, quickness, strength, charisma...The Antihero is, by definition, normal.
Nope. My understanding of the word is correct. Look it up. Your understanding is too broad. |
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Feb 16 2005, 05:39 AM
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#39
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
I've seen that arguement before. It says nothing different than you do. Just because its an article posted on the internet, doesn't make it right. Am I really supposed to believe that the characters in Ocean's Eleven were anything but heroic? Ha! That's rich. Its a story about a guy that enlists a number of (non-lethal) crooks to rob a (argueably) corrupt corporate mogule with the ultimate goal of winning his true love back. Sounds pretty heroic to me. All it lacks is a dragon... Give it up. Frank's a hero. He kills guys that are "badder" than him. |
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Feb 16 2005, 05:41 AM
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#40
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,156 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Fresno, CalFree Member No.: 4,252 |
That guy uses Final Fantasy 7 as a citation in his article. As such, he loses all credibility in my eyes.
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Feb 16 2005, 07:04 AM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
The Punisher's active skills might be narrowly focused, but his knowledge skills should definitely include things like guerilla tactics, psych ops, etc. He is not just fearsome because he is a badass - he is fearsome because he is ruthlessly cunning, knows how to play on an enemy's fears, and knows how to use his surroundings to improvise any number of lethal stunts.
He is a deceptively difficult character to play, both because his morality is so unbending, and because he is so very intelligent as a combattant. |
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Feb 16 2005, 07:37 AM
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#42
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
that fits Frank Castle, within the melieu of comic books. traditional comic book heroes are characterized by reactionary dogoodery, killing only in direct self-defense, maintaining a secret identity, etcetera. Frank Castle is characterized by his proactive dogoodery, his habit of hunting down bad guys and killing them, not leading a double life, etcetera. the characteristics that make him unique, in other words, are the opposite of the defining characteristics of superpowered heroism. this fits the definition of the word "antihero", because the definition is inherently bounded by the melieu being discussed at the time; "heroic qualities" change, from genre to genre, and even change slightly within genres. for instance, Image comics "heroes" rarely have any compunction about killing, whereas Marvel comics "heroes" generally do. if Punisher up and ported himself into Image, he'd no longer be an antihero. |
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Feb 16 2005, 04:23 PM
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#43
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Oh yeah, Pun has spent a significant amount of karma on knowledge skills. Amusingly he doesn't call a lot of contacts he just tortures a lot of organized crime soldiers until one points him where he needs to go. There's a lot of torture on Frank's menu, most of it is on the 99 cent value menue, as it gets ordered frequently and in volume. :D
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Feb 16 2005, 05:24 PM
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#44
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 478 Joined: 18-December 03 From: Louisville, KY Member No.: 5,918 |
But remember...above all.... what he does is not vengeance....
It's PUNISHMENT!! |
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Feb 16 2005, 05:38 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Nope. Frank is and always has been a ruthless vigilante murderer whose emotional state has decreased and become colder and more heartless constantly. Hero is a very loose term; he justifies it solely because he hunts bad guys.
Better than the original Dolph PoS? Yes. A good Punisher movie? Not really. They made, imo, a wimped-out, half-arsed version of the Garth Ennis comics that never really lived up to the original stories that Ennis wrote. Watch the film, then go back and read the Russian story arc in the comics. Muchly different. On a related note, I never really got into the Punisher originally. I only bought the gothic angel of death miniseries out of curiosity and because I was looking for some ideas for a character of my own. But since Preacher, pretty much anything Garth Ennis does goes in my comic order (a distinction only shared with Warren Ellis), and so I got the new Punisher stuff. It was fantastic. Turning Ennis loose on this unbelievable psycho bastard was inspired; the murder and mayhem are extreme, but backed up with solid storytelling. |
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Feb 16 2005, 08:30 PM
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#46
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Target Group: Members Posts: 42 Joined: 1-December 03 From: Des Moines, IA Member No.: 5,866 |
I haven't read many Punisher comics recently, but from what I remember, the new movie did not have the same "grittiness" and darkness I recall.
However, the last battle in the new movie basically summed up everything I liked about the Punisher comic in its pure intensity and gore. I ended up wishing the whole film was like that last fight in the building. I REALLY liked him stabbing that guy under the chin and seeing the blade in his mouth. THAT was bad ass. 8) |
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Feb 17 2005, 02:16 AM
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#47
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,129 Joined: 11-June 03 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 4,712 |
Exactly.
It didn't and it paints a poor picture of what kind of character Castle is in the comics.
Heh, yeah. The point he makes is sound though if you can wrap your mind around the concept. He's approaching the term of 'antihero' the way mfb describes, from within the genre and in relation to the established terms of what heroes are in that setting.
I wasn't implying that just because its on the internet it makes it right. You're avoiding the point.
Being a coldhearted killer is very unheroic. It implies a lack of set of characteristics that allow for someone to not kill their enemy when he's down. Heroes take their enemies into the cops or some other such nonsense. Antiheroes break the law and are in effect, shades different than those that they battle.
Try to remember the either definition of the word in which terms like heroic traits and characteristics are emphasized as the hallmarks of heroes. The key here that you're missing is that the character first needs to be a protagonist to be an antihero. When one is referring to "villains", the image associated with it is someone or some group that opposes the person that you're reading about and hopefully rooting for. If this isn't the case, then the main character is nothing more than another villain himself, as the way he conducts himself defines what he is.
Again, lacking heroic qualities has absolutely nothing to do with what skill someone has. Either definition that you pick (first or second) has zero to do with skills. That's a kevyn668 thing, not a dictionary thing. Even the definition that you first went with had nothing to do with skills or abilities. The term is defined by qualities and traits.
In case you haven't noticed, I've done more than look up the definition. I've attempted to show you how your own personal definition of the word has nothing to do with the set of skills that a person possesses. You're redefining the word when its spelled out very simply. Skills are not the same as characteristics, traits, and ideals. Otherwise, the word "skill" would be used. Show me a definition that states that skills make the antihero and you'll have my concession. Until then, I'm sticking with the definition that's established, not kevyn's. No offense. |
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Feb 17 2005, 03:18 AM
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#48
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,751 Joined: 8-August 03 From: Neighbor of the Beast Member No.: 5,375 |
None taken.
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Feb 17 2005, 03:59 AM
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#49
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Personally, I don't think the Punisher is lacking in the 'Ideals' category.
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Feb 17 2005, 04:56 AM
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#50
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Neither is Osama Bin Laden for that matter... |
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