 Magical Adept vs. Mage, Which one's 'better'? |
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 Feb 16 2005, 05:32 PM
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#26
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Immortal Elf  Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670  |
indeed. heck, if the rules for magician's way adept initiation were fixed, i might play them more often.
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Feb 16 2005, 05:48 PM
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#27
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Fixed?
It'd work if the description was written coherently. |
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Feb 16 2005, 05:58 PM
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#28
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
The infusion focus is another thing thrown into the mix. Works better than normal for a physmage because their magic goes up but thier power points don't (if they learn metamagics) So a physmage can get plug & play power points (and use them all the time) for 6 karma and 150-300kY(street index) per point.
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Feb 16 2005, 05:59 PM
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#29
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
It's that incoherency that led to the ludicrous FAQ ruling, which is in itself quite coherent, albeit totally wrong.
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Feb 16 2005, 06:04 PM
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#30
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
an adept who gets only metamagics at initiation, and who has an infusion focus with a force equal to 2x his grade, will be on an equal footing with a normal mage.
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Feb 16 2005, 06:09 PM
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#31
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 675 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Seattle Member No.: 2,034 |
Except that they can spend the points on adept powers instead of magical power if they want. I don't think it makes them better than a mage, but it certainly helps them out. If there is a lot of money available it helps them out a lot because they can plug & play powers appropriate to any situation and learn them for about the same karma as a spell.
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Feb 16 2005, 06:09 PM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
No, it isn't. To have that 15 body you have to sacrifice a lot of other things you could have gotten instead. To have aptitude, you have to figure out some flaws, which any munchkin could do, to compensate, thats it. Also, yes, the troll would tear through said adept, as the adepts TNs are 4's, and the trolls are 3's. Also the adepts power is reduced (If I remember right) from close-in fighting. Same with the sam, but give the troll a dikoted polearm, if the sam gets diokoted spurs. Sam has less power, and the troll still has a tn of 3, and will overall beat the sam. Add on the troll will soak anything hes hit with anyway, and now hes even worse. |
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Feb 16 2005, 06:16 PM
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#33
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
pshaw. they'll both go down when the mage slaps them with a high-force D stunbolt.
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Feb 16 2005, 06:29 PM
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#34
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Any adept/sam that wants to fight the troll close in with any expectation of winning would almost certainly be capable of punching through the armour, and be confident that he's vastly more skilled. Otherwise the difference in TN's would be irrelevent. Power is reduced by 1 for close-in fighting. The Troll should be tough. The troll should have a good chance of winning. Whether the troll WOULD win is up in the air. Likely. In good shape? Not necessairily. Trolls can be beaten in melee rounds even when they've got a 3 reach bonus on you. I've got a Sam who did it. He lost the fight overall, but the Troll was not in great shape after. It just takes a little intelligent planning in the fight. Take more intelligent planning, and you just unload a few clips at him before he gets into range, full auto with an assault rifle. Beyond that, a single light wound, physical or stun, negates aptitude quite nicely. That just takes one lost opposed diceroll, or one shot that isn't soaked fully. Body 15, on the other hand, is a more measurable, consistant bonus (unaffected by the Troll's condition) which can and will cause serious problems. Yes, said character would be weaker in other areas. But, it's still 15 dice thrown to soak anything that comes. Put armour + helmet on, and add in even the slightest bit of intelligent fighting to make shooting TN's higher, and the troll will be walking away with virtually no damage from most gunfire and weapons. |
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Feb 16 2005, 06:41 PM
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#35
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Mr. Johnson Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,587 Joined: 25-January 05 From: Berkeley, CA Member No.: 7,014 |
My Magician Adept character plans on creating an Ally Spirit to cover this hole, although we already have a very competent Raccoon shaman to cover astral surveillances. Magician Adepts aren't very cost effective, but they are versatile in some ways (I'd still say a full mage is much better), and some character concepts work much better as a Magician Adept than as a Magician or a plain Adept. |
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Feb 16 2005, 06:44 PM
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#36
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
Oh hell no.
In an opposed roll having the aptitude is a horrible advantage, the odds of beating someone out when you suffer a TN penalty are devstating. Assuming no other TN mods, rolling 4 dice with an aptitude at a TN of 4 is equal to 6 dice without an aptitude. The example of a troll with a +3 reach losing to a sam with no reach or ways to avoid reach is horribly rare except in cases of artistic licence. The troll could drop his TN to 2 while raising the sammie's TN to 5. This means that For every 6 dice the sammie rolls the troll would need around 15 dice to break even. That's without an aptitude. If the troll also had an aptitude the sammie would need 30 dice to break even with the troll's 6. I'd like to hear how your scenario went for the sammy to have a prayer in hell. That's a HUGE shift in odds. Aptitudes cause a complete game balance shift. particularly in melee. This huge balance shift also applies to magic and decking. In short, an aptitude is a Phenominal measurable, consistant bonus. |
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Feb 16 2005, 06:48 PM
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#37
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the balance shift is less huge in magic and decking, but still appreciable. the balance shift in melee is absolutely overwhelming.
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Feb 16 2005, 08:14 PM
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#38
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
The situation I'd been referring to: my Sam vs Troll. I did not say the Sam won the fight, I said he won a few rounds, at a greater disadvantage than Aptitude. Aptitude would have included Close-In fighting for the Sam, so would have gone more in the Sam's favour. No close-in fighting, neither with aptitude, Troll was using whips, Sam was using dikoted spurs and had venom packs (custom cyberware, each arm could deliver 8 doses of gamma-scopalamene (sp)), both had skill 8. Yes, it's a dirty stunt. Sam hit I believe it was 3 times over the fight (about 9 exchanges). First one was the most important -- because he got a dose of GS in, which is absolutely obscene. All of the sudden, the Troll, beyond the injury modifiers both were facing, had another +2 to his target numbers. The sam ended up losing the fight in the end -- Troll was still standing, and he was passing out. That's when the mage had finally gotten there and cleaned the rest of the fight out. --------------------------------------- No modifiers but aptitude.. aptitude will get 2/3 * dice successes, compared to 1/2 * successes, over a large sampling. 4 dice each.. gives 8/3 successes for the person with aptitude, compared to 4/2 (2) without. That's not an exceptional difference -- in fact, it's about equivalent to 1 extra skill point. In fact, it's 2/3 of a success more -- rounding, yes, it becomes equal to 6 dice without, but statistically speaking that's very different. MFB: I would say it's a greater advantage to the mage, because the mage just has to see you to use the advantage on you. Melee skills? Have to get into melee. Lots of time for people to point assault rifles or throw stunbolts/powerbolts/manabolts. |
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Feb 16 2005, 08:20 PM
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#39
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yes, but with magic, it's not generally as close a contest; the mage's base TNs are different from the target's base TNs, and different modifiers apply to each--it's not a direct contest. in melee, you're rolling directly against your opponent, and the TNs are usually very close; raising or lowering the TNs is often more important than having a few more dice.
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Feb 16 2005, 08:31 PM
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#40
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,133 Joined: 3-October 04 Member No.: 6,722 |
Where I really found a physmage to be an advantage was when making my Gun Kata Adept. Since I wanted a dual pistol setup, laser sights were out; being able to throw an Enhance Aim into a sustaining focus was well worth sacrificing a point of magic for (as mentioned before, subject to GM approval that's a Personal Extended Enhance Aim, which is even more useful). Having taken the magic point in the first place, it's worth adding a few other spells; Fashion and Makeover, those two classics, and an emergency Treat (yes the drain will be physical, but a low Force treat can have its Drain soaked to nil, and the few boxes of healing could save someone's life - even yours) spring to mind. A lot of utility spells work at that kind of level as well; Gecko Crawl, anyone? Magic Fingers? It's not strong, but it'll flip a switch.
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Feb 16 2005, 08:31 PM
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#41
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
True mfb-- but raising or lowering the target number has a vast affect on the amount of successes, and can make the difference between a spell being tough to resist but possible, and instant-kill.
For instance, sorcery 6, force 4 spell, 5 spell pool, and 4(D) drain... If you're frying goons against target 4, you need to throw 8-10 dice to be relatively sure that you're going to kill them all first cast. If you have aptitude, it's target 3, and you need to throw 6 dice to be relatively sure, leaving you more to direct to drain resistance, with in turn makes your mage more likely to be able to continue casting.. Aptitude, in melee, is devastating, but not insurmountable -- but it's a more limitted application. True, changing target numbers in melee is usually more important than adding a few dice.. but changing target numbers happens quite a bit, for a larger amount of reasons, from everything to that gunfight beforehand to bad lighting, to a phobia taking affect, to totem modifiers for shamans, to reach. |
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Feb 16 2005, 08:46 PM
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#42
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
It's not that sudden (referring to to what I bolded) drugs don't take effect until the beginning of the next combat round, after you roll initiative again, even drugs marked "instant". Most folks glaze over that.
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Feb 16 2005, 08:54 PM
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#43
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
It's sudden enough when neither one gets more than two actions in a round ;)
You're right though, I did miss that. |
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Feb 16 2005, 08:58 PM
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#44
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Traumatizing players since 1992 Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 3,282 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Las Vegas, NV Member No.: 220 |
We missed that for a long time and it made drugs far less useful for specific applications while still keeping them a nice alternative. It made them far less abusable in many situations from a game balance point of view. |
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Feb 16 2005, 09:54 PM
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#45
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,032 Joined: 6-August 04 Member No.: 6,543 |
I have yet to see a magical adept that was good at being an adept or good being a mage. At best they lag behind most adepts or mages in the field that they want to go for. The thing about mages is that they need a lot of karma to do what they do. The thing about adepts is they need a lot of karma to do what they want to do.
If you are a mage, you look in the book and you can rightly say I want just about every spell in the book,plus some others. You may want to get an ally spirit.You may not. As an adept well you can always get more power,and frankly you just about always do. Both these things take Karma. About the only thing they have in common with the use of the karma is that they both want metamagics. In the end, just about any time I wanted to play a magical adept,I played a voodoun. |
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Feb 16 2005, 10:02 PM
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#46
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686 |
You missed my point. Regardless of whatever "game-breaking" scenario you come up with, throw aptitude on top of it, and its that much worse. Aptitude is so game breaking because you can tack it on top of anything else, without any real penalty (hell, grab borrowed time, combat junkies aren't likely to live long anyway). It doesn't matter what scenario, aptitude (if applicable) is going to be much more gamebreaking than something else, because you could have that something else, and aptitude. Melee shapeshifter with aptitude? Sure, go for it. Ghoul gnome spellcaster aptitude sorcery? Yeah, be a nasty bastard. Street sammy aptitude(weapon of choice) go kill some guys. Adept sniper aptitude (rifle) go splatter some heads. It just makes any game-breaking build worse, not to mention making non-gamebreaking ones game-breaking, or close to it. |
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Feb 16 2005, 10:21 PM
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#47
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
For magicians way adepts vs full magicians, its more of a "how long term do you plan" thing. Cause out past 300 karma youre gonna start seeing the adept get a lot more powerful. But with lower values the magician tends to be better *in a broader range* than the adept. Magicians way adepts tend to be able to combine several powers from both categories to really shine in one area, but they lack the versatility that comes with being a full mage. Until, of course, youve built up enough karma to overcome all that.
As far as aptitude in the recommended "not" skill categories, that recommendation is there for very good reason. I dont care what you compare it to, in what example, in what test or condition; the aptitude is always broken relative to whatever youre trying to compare it to. Dont fight it just trust us. Statistically and game mechanically its an almost ir-reproducible advantage that will wildly swing the odds in the aptitude-ee's favor. Its not even a challenge to point out why. Its been done to death before. Any example anyone throws up here trying to claim aptitude in a recommended barred skill will be shot down in short order. Give up, resistance is futlie. Just accept its too powerful. You may like things too powerful, and be content with it in your games, and thats fine. But it *does* wildly swing the odds past the ability of virtually anything elses ability to do so. |
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Feb 16 2005, 10:26 PM
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#48
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Isn't there also requiment of Astral Perception first?
You turn round in a conversation of Aptitude and Reach saying that you've had a character win against the odd's and bring in a third element. You turn round and say that Trolls with reach 3 aren't a difficult beat even if they happen to have aptitude (though in the example you later gave it seemed that the troll didn't) but only because your Sam had Gamma Scopolamine. Thus for such a Troll to be balanced everybody had to carry Gamma-Scopolamine coated weapons which over 99.99% of people don't have. Thus the conclusion is that over 99.99% of the time such a character is NOT balanced. |
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Feb 17 2005, 12:04 AM
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#49
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Yeah, but I kinda figured that was self-evident. :P ;) |
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Feb 17 2005, 01:09 AM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 668 Joined: 15-February 05 From: Ontario, Canada Member No.: 7,086 |
Balance doesn't mean that a fight will be won 50% of the time by one party and 50% by the other.. it means that ALL OTHER THINGS BEING EQUAL, it will come down to luck. As in, two identical people fighting with identical styles, it should come down to luck. Everything else, should, quite rightfully, depend on tactics, planning, strategy, and what dirty tricks you have up your sleeve. If you're fighting someone that you can't beat one way, then you're fighting the wrong way. Otherwise, every spellcaster is broken in the fight, because from well out of range they manabolt/powerbolt/stunbolt at Xdeadly and the troll is down. No maybe a little drain for the caster, depending on things. If the character in question is unbeatable in EVERY way that you can think of, then it's unbalanced. If they're unbeatable in most, then they're getting unbalanced. If they've got one thing they excell in, then they are not unbalanced. If you want to make the argument that everyone should be beatable in melee by anyone, everyone, or exactly 50% of people, then there's no point in any debate. We're down, effectively, everyone has skill 1 in every skill. In the example I gave -- all I did was show that a 3 reach bonus is NOT the be-all-end-all of a fight, and gave a way that the fight became more even. Yes, there's a recommendation for GMs to consider whether or not aptitude is something they want in their games for those skills. It's not a recommendation 'not' to have it, it's a recommendation to be careful about using it. There's a difference. It's an important one. |
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