Magical Adept vs. Mage, Which one's 'better'? Options

[Crimson Jack]

Its interesting to hear so many people saying that a full mage is better, in their opinions, than a physmage. I used to think the same thing, until one of my players built one that I dare say is one of the strongest characters I've ever seen in any of my games. At the onset, he was underpowered, compared to the team shaman and full physad. But, now that the group has accumulated several hundred karma, that guy is a juggernaut in combat. Physmages, IMO, ripen nicely.

[BitBasher]

after a few hundred karma anyone with a long term plan for their karma is a badass.

[Crimson Jack]

I didn't make my point very clear. The physmage is leaps and bounds more versatile in the end game over the group's wujen (didn't mean to post "shaman" earlier) and physad.

[Cynic project]

Have you seen a Voodoun with 300 karma?

[Crimson Jack]

No, but in the one game that I get to play in, my houngan is up to 120 GK, IIRC. Nice, but not amazing. Why? What's up with the 300k Voodoun?

[mfb]

that's abnormal. in nine cases out of ten, a full mage will be lightyears ahead of a magician's way adept.

[Cynic project]

Well, I had one that got around 170 karma I think. By that time he could not be killed by anything short of antitank weapons or magics, and magic was rather hard. You see, when you get to that range you can get force 7 great form Loa,
witch have nasty abilities onto themselves.

Now, think of what you could when you have immunity to normal weapons,concealment,movement,gourd and magical gourd... I have seen my Voodoun walk out of things that should have killed him. About the only place that I can think of him as having a weak point was the matrix.

Magical Adepts could be the best,if you give them infinite karama. But I think most die beofre they reach the breaking point.

[BitBasher]

[Glyph]

An adept of the magical way that is made with a game plan can be better than any other option for certain roles. Melee is one example (improved ability, plus invoking combined with channeling, plus an optimal mix of melee-enhancing spells). You could also make an effective face (the new adept social powers combined with spells such as mind probe, makeover, influence, etc.).

[Crimson Jack]

[Crimson Jack]

[Crimson Jack]

[Sharaloth]

So far I've seen two Magicians Way Adepts in the games I've played. One I played, the other I GM'd for. This would be Dawnshadow's Magician-Adept with the Swords Aptitude, which I wouldn't allow for any other game than the one I'm running (Extremely high-Karma, extremely powerful enemies, virtually no pay).

I've seen a bunch of full-on magicians as well, but I'd have to say it comes out pretty even. Of course, a badly constructed M-A does not stack up to a moderately well constructed F-M, but the reverse is also true. Once you get to the 100+ Karma range, things even out. I'll take the two strongest examples of each, Kincade (the M-A), and Arm (the F-M).

Kincade started out about halfway through a high-powered game, and about two runs away from the climax of the first main Arc (I run in story arcs), so he began with something near 50 Karma to his name for improvements after CC was done with. Near end of the Arc, he's at just over 100 Karma. At this point, he's still only got an effective spellcasting Magic of 3 (all of it geased for nighttime only), and a few well-chosen Adept abilities (enhanced senses, Improved Reflexes, Improved Quickness, Quickdraw). A Power Focus and an Ally Spirit help to offset the low available Magic (thought he Ally has a bad habit of being disrupted every time she would be useful). He's nowhere near the power of the other adept of the team, nor is he at the level of a full magician. However, his abilities allow him to go above and beyond either when necessary. Like the Adept he's got high initiative and reaction that CAN'T be dispelled. Like the Magician he has access to spirits and spells that can boost his strength, allow him to become invisible, etc, etc. That he's a specialized Melee fighter (ranged combat is not Kincade's friend), allows him to be VERY good in one area at the sacrifice of others (like a well-made Adept), but gives him the versatility to strike out magically if closing with the enemy is impossible or inadviseable (like a well-made mage).

The downsides come with facing off against a character who is specialized in an area he is not. A skilled gunfighter could take out Kincade quickly, though would get absolutely slaughtered if he let the M-A close to sword range. A seasoned Mage could dispell Kincade's spells and blow up his Foci, but Kincade has Spell Defense he can use to offset this, and allow him enough time to get near said mage. Against a full adept, he would be beat with the level of skills and speed, but could use his spells to an undeniable advantage.

Nice tradeoff, actually. Mostly why I like M-A's. The sickening drawbacks to the need for initiation and the threat of magic loss make up for it, though.

Now, Arm. Arm is an interesting character. Designed as both a high-powered Mage and a highly competent Decker, he started off with Cyber and some Bio. Were we running a high-karma game at the time? No, so he couldn't have expected to have that choice NOT come back to haunt him. Did he let the hit in magic slow him down? No. Did he geas his magic loss? No. Did he summon an Ally Spirit before gaining back that magic point? Yes. Did he willingly learn and cast Force 10 spells before he initiated once? You better believe it.

Once Arm passed the 100 Karma mark (the only character of that group to do so, everyone else having either died, turned into world-threatening NPC's or retired and been replaced), he was a force of nature. He had a habit of tossing around Force 10+ Laser spells, summoning Force 8+ great form Elementals for kicks, and whenever he felt even slightly threatened he would turn turtle with his specially designed Physical Barrier Spell, for which he had approximately fifty force 8 expendible spell foci for on any particular occasion. He was, in the words of one other player "Godlike" in his ability to survive and dole out destruction. He was, however, useless in anything that didn't involve either wreaking (or surviving) devastation, or Decking. The fact that he was the oldest surviving character made him the de facto leader of the group, and that led to many character's safehouses being firebombed. Now, his spells were of such high force that they couldn't be dispelled, and barely defended against, and he had this insane Willpower boosting spell that he super-quickened to himself and then kept Masked that put his Will effectively at 15 for resisting the intense drain he put himself through. If he knew you were there, and he wanted to kill you, you were dead. If you unloaded a goddamned assault cannon at him after he knew you were trying to kill him, it would do jack all. If you caught him by surprise, he could barely throw a punch to defend himself. He survived on the unerring ability of his teammates to get in the way of the first bullet and him. With him the key was surprise, and he was not immune to that by far.

Again, not a bad tradeoff.

In the end, neither Kincade nor Arm are any more or less effective and powerful than each other (at that point of development, at least). The M-A has versatility, the F-M has sheer power (in this example). A diverse F-M will be lacking in several areas against even a diverse M-A, mostly in the physical aspect, which the M-A excels in as a matter of course. A diverse M-A will be lacking in several areas against a diverse F-M, mostly in the magical aspect, which the M-A excels in as a matter of course. The P-A (physical Adept) excels agianst the F-M a great deal physically, the F-M excels completely agianst the P-A Magically, and both excel in their individual areas against the M-A. But that's the entire purpose of the M-A, to be more physically capable than a F-M, and more magically capable than a P-A, but not equal to either in their field of specialization. Jack of all trades, master of none. You lose a little of one thing to gain a little of something else, etc, etc, etc.


At least, that's the way I see it. I could be weird.

[Dawnshadow]

[tisoz]

IMO, Aptitude (melee skill) is easier balanced and easier to challenge without putting the whole team at risk than Body 15. Just have melee opponents attack in pairs, or throw an extra attacker at him. Poof, advantage neutralized, and PC gets to feel good for overcoming odds.

[Tarantula]

No, advantage isn't neutalized, he has an advantage, because without it, he couldn't take the two attackers at once. Hes now tying up 2 attackers, rather than just 1. If you just decide to double any melee combatants, well, thats your call as a GM, but its more than you would have had to do without the aptitude. Don't forget, aptitude & whirling is a very nasty combination.

[Drain Brain]

I have made a couple of Magical Adepts, normally to satisfy a particular character concept. Although I like the idea, in most cases the concept would have been better served by utilising the knack power (created, I believe, by Steve Kenson, but not technically canon).

Mostly, a single spell effect is what I'm after, and although I allow knacks in games I run, I have yet to find a GM who will allow me to use it on a character I am playing...

[CoalHeart]

Physmages or Magical Adepts whatever you want to call them can come out to be very.... very very very scary.

Boon to the Magic Casting side of him is the Adept ability of Pain Resistance.
No longer fear knocking yourself the hell out by casting your big big boom spells, or summoning up some sort of fiendish draco-horror from some forgotten multiverse.

Big Boon to the Adept side of is Improved Invisibility, and Armor spell.
Now they can't see you, and if they manage to hurt you you can resist the hell out of it much easier.

Spell Defense + Spell Resistance.

Mystic Armor + Astral Armor/armor + Weapon Foci + Improved Ability(Weapon)+Counterstrike +Astral Perception= Perfect Astral thing killer, as well as just a hellacious Melee combat bastard.

Improved Ability(Gun)+Extended Enhanced Aim+Improved Reflexes + Improved Quickness + Various Combat Pool enhancing Spells / Powers = Monster of a gunbunny.

Given enough karma and time, Magical Adepts make very nasty things, worse than adepts alone, or mages alone. The hard part is surviving that long. :D

Oh and P.S. Never drink, smoke, then think it would be cool to ask the GM to send your runners against a 10th grade Phys Mage Initiate Wendigo of the Shark and his CyberVampire SideKick.

Yea... that turned out ugly, had to... Lets just leave it alone and blame it on the brownies. ::twitch::

[GentlemanLoser]

If you haven't seen it, check out my Optimising a M-A thread...

;)

[BitBasher]

[mfb]

not true. M&M page 131 states that if you have pain resistance or damage compensators, you stay conscious for 10+level/rating boxes.

[BitBasher]

Woof. damnit I need M&M in PDF.... I've never seen that rule.

[mfb]

it does beg the question: what if you've got body 6, and pain resistance 10? do you stay alive for 20 boxes, even though you'd normally be all-the-way-dead at 16?

[Tarantula]

Check the disablement rules right after the consciousness ones. Pg 132.

[CoalHeart]