Mainframe Costs, ... expensive, y'think? Options

[hahnsoo]

I think that the formulas would work slightly more in tune with the SR world if the exponents were toned down a bit for Blue and Green hosts. After all, every Stuffer Shack and Fast Food restaurant has at least a Blue 4 running around, and the startup costs for getting those computers would be too expensive to ever purchase. Maybe a formula that makes the exponent something like Blue = 2nd power, Green = 3rd power, Orange = 4th power, etc.

[mfb]

i don't think it's going to work at all unless the concept that hosts with the same security value, color, and subsystem values are not necessarily equal in other respects is taken into account.

[Da9iel]

Since everyone is throwing out their formulas, here's one I use. I consider it to include IC. I cobbled it together to determine decker threat level based on target resources.

Blue = 1
Green = 2
Orange = 3
Red = 4

½ * rating * A * C * I * F * S * (color)^3

A standard blue 4 telecom would then be 27.6 k. Green easy would be 1180 k. Red hard would be around 276 M.

Considering a "standard" 1000 MP memory cartridge costs 30k. I think it's about right for a home telecom. At first I used color^2, but I had complaints that red hards were too cheap that way. It's by no means a purchasing guide. There could be smaller reds and bigger blues, but it's a start.

[Kagetenshi]

Count me in on the waaaaay too cheap on the high end crew, with a dash of overpriced in the low end.

Oh, and before anyone reposts that one rant where someone claims that expensive mainframes would just mean that Trolls would be able to carry away millions of nuyen worth of equipment, that guy is an idiot. IBM lists their mainframes as being on the order of six hundred kilos.

More coherence on the issue when I'm not on dialup.

~J

[mfb]

IBM's mainframes also use a computing medium that produces a lot of waste heat, which in turn requires a lot of heavy heat sinks. moreover, modern magnetic media are full of metal; futuristic optical media are, largely, not. SR mainframes could easily be the size of a modern full tower.

[Shaudes29]

OK here's my idea about it.

The security code represents a modifier to how much of a system's resources are dedicated to security.
The Security value is a direct percentage of the system's resources that are always dedicated to security.
Assuming a PC standard security is Green4 8/8/8/8/8 then this level of security is standard and built in to the system. So a host with this level of security or lower does not add cost to the system.

So lets say that the base Security Code Modifier(SCM) for Security code is
Blue 10% Green 25% Orange 50% Red 100% UV 200%
This is a modifier that efects many things.
The Security Value(SV) represents a % of system resorses modified by security code
so a Blue6 for example would be

Blue 6 .6% of the systems resources are used for security, while a Red 6 would dedicate 6% of it's resources to security.
Now if a passive alert occurs the resources increase by a factor of 2 and an active alert by a factor of 4.
Blue 6 .6% ,1.2%, 2.4% while a Red 6 6%, 12%, 24% (Why corps hate active alerts)

So a PC G4 8/8/8/8/8
Memory 100*20=$2,000 Personal Computer Value(PCV)
so

using the formula below
A,C,I,F,S are the other ratings multiplied by the number next to them

(SCM*SV*PCV)+(((SC*SV)*(A2+C3+I2+F2+S1))/1000)

using this formula I got the following values
based on 4 8/8/8/8/8 with 100K memory system value 2 Mill
--------------------memory for defense programs
Blue 25.6K 400 no alert(N) 800 passive alert(P) 1600 active alert(A)
Green 160K 1000N, 2000P,4000A
Orange 640K 2000N,4000P,8000A
Red 2,560K 4000N,8000P,16000A
UV 10,240K 8000N,16000P,32000A

this also shows the re-allocation of resources to an alert

So total costs not counting Programs or terminals just the RAW system
(there is a discount for systems with lower security than standard)

Blue 2,000K-134.49K (difference of base price)=1,865,600
Green 2,000,000
Orange 2,640,000
Red 4,560,000
UV 10,240,000

Now if main frames may get memory as little as $2/MP then just add a 0 to all the numbers.
This can all be tweaked

[Edward]

Personally I see a formula something like this


Blue = ~1
Green = ~1.1
Orange = ~1.2
Red = ~1.3

io speed =IO (the maximum total IO speed the host can handle with a multiplier ~.002 look at users and terminal IO speeds as well as inter system data transfers and slave node IO speeds to determine requirements)

Active memory =AM (the active memory of the host with a multiplier ~.002 size of IC*iterations of IC expected on a bad day and 50-1000MP and special program requirements per user is required)

Storage memory = SM (the active memory of the host with a multiplier ~.001 non needed only for data storage)

(rating^2 + A + C + I + F + S) * (color) * (IO + AM + SM)

of cause as hosts are really beyond the scope of a shadow runner they didn’t bother to define IO speed AM or PM for hosts. The constants will need a lot of fiddling but I believe that is the form the equation should take.

Corporate hoists are usually well designed to make certain they never run out of memory or IO speed

[Shaudes29]

i was figuring that IO is not aplicabel to a host as the host is not transferring data from or to anything but its self. That it is the accessing device that woudl have the IO speed and thats payed for as a different cost. As is the case with the SM. I was trying to show how just the security ratings relate to the AM of a system.

[Eyeless Blond]

Well, you knoe, everything you upload to a server is stuff the server has to download from you, and vice versa. It's not like I/O speed is free for the server; it has to pay to in I/O to receive the files you send, or send the files you receive. In fact, that's an element I didn't add into my version of the houserule, and it's a very important one.

[Shaudes29]

well whats the IO of a table top computer? Do data jaks have IO ratings? I figure that the tech for teh mainframs is so fasat that its a mute point compared to a deck or other terminal. You pay for teh turminals seperatly

[Edward]

The tech for IO and memory storage means it can be a moot point but remember, a home data term is a low end host. Do you really think its data path to the matrix at large could cope if the society of auto lovers decided to hold there national AGM (all members invited) virtually within the sectary’s home data term?

Host can be built with any amount of IO speed the maker thinks it needs but more speed cost more money so there only going to buy what they think they need.

Edward

[mfb]

in SR1, datajacks did indeed have I/O speeds. in SR2, i believe, they took them out because it was too complicated. datajacks actually used to come in levels, with higher levels offering more I/O. the I/O of a tabletop computer is probably around 100Mp/s or so.

most hosts, honestly, probably has an I/O speed too high to bother calculating.

[Bandwidthoracle]

Personally, I'd like to see something like this:

Color is a cost multiplyer.
The player buys/cooks the MCPC for security rating, and the chips for A/C/I/F/S (like a deck, except different chips)
I/O is dealt with baised on the linespeed of the account (Allready rules for this in matrix)
Active memory is fixed, and needs to be bought/cooked with respect to color (IE all red hosts need x active)
Storage memory needs to store the sculpt + 1 copy of each ic + fixed size seath file, and is handled like normal deck memory.
No running IC can be higher than fixed amount like color x secuirty rating, and the decker needs to code/reverse-engineer/buy IC.

That's an outline of how I'd do it, probabbly needs work ^_^

[mfb]

i don't think the ACIFS ratings make sense as single chips. though, to be fair, i don't think bod/eva/sens/mask make sense as single chips, either.

it really doesn't make sense to make active memory fixed for all hosts. that would mean that a telecom (a blue host) is capable of running the entire Yakut RTG (also a blue host). that's just nuts.

the I/O rules in Matrix cannot take into account the I/O needs of a large host. what connection is the Seattle RTG supposed to use, that will give it enough I/O to handle the hundreds of thousands of users that log onto it every minute?

[Shaudes29]

[Bandwidthoracle]

[Craig]

My thought on the Blue/Green/Low-end hosts was co-location.

In other words, the High School/Stuffer Shack/Whatever doesn't have a real matrix host. They have a Virtual Host, run off of some big matrix provider's servers. It looks and acts just like a real Host, but doesn't require them to have their own computers running hosts that some enterprising gangers could smash and grab, just dumb terminals that hook into the host, as it were.

[BitBasher]

[Eyeless Blond]

[Garland]

Why can't a person deck a virtual host? It follows all the same rules, except for that fact that it's just an "imaginary" partition of a larger host.

On the other hand, imagine the Orwellian implications if all your at-home slave devices (the desktop pc, the phone, the coffee machine, etc.) are all run through this giant ur-host in the basement of Shiawase Telcom or wherever.

[Crusher Bob]

Heh, just wait until they find out their decks are nothing but virtual machines too. Sorta a really big MMO, you spend all your time chasing after that Excalibur when all it is is a 'really rare drop1111'.

Hmm, wierd decker only campaign idea...

[Botch]

The thing I find odd is that there are any mainframes at all in 206x.

The processing power of any non-mainframe computer, must be massive to to even come close to justifying its cost.

The justifications suggested for the horrific memory consumption of SR tech preclude the use of mainframe/terminal configurations.

Constantly the phrase, "and with 60 years of technical development has..." is used yet already SR computers are stupidly overpriced compared to 2005.

"Parallel Processing"

Sorry, rant hijack over.

[hobgoblin]

two comments:

1. a dont have to be a single computer, it can be a network of smaller servers running as a grid or cluster and useing the same metaphor. this can allso explain a multihost setup inside a single building, floors 1-4 may be connected to the same host/network while the rest is connected to a diffrent one. then the two are connected useing something similar to a router. its just like seperateing diffrent parts of a office into subnets today.

2. hacking the home telecom i guess is as simple as hacking a windows box today if you know what your doing or have access to the latest worm out there. just roll computer skill, and if one gets atleast 1 success one is in. remeber that you dont realy need a computer skill to use a sr computer for everyday tasks. if you want to secure a home telecom, slap some encryption on it :P