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> Quick Armor question, quickness and combat pool
DocMortand
post Feb 27 2005, 06:32 AM
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A new character Lina created named "Boom" has 3 Quickness, and is a troll with titanium bone lacing (2/1 Armor), Orthoskin 3 (1/2 Armor) and then has armed clothing (3/2) + Lined Coat (total external armor 5/2 I believe).

Now according to the rules, the total armor is 8/5 I believe. now, according to armor and combat pool rules (SR3 pg. 285) He is -3 dice in his combat pool. However, do the bone lacing and orthoskin count in any way towards the layering armor rules? I initially have ruled that it didn't, but I'm curious what the bookninjas think. If it does count then this character can't move (he is over 3 points over his quickness, which means his movement is negative) If it doesn't then he can barely move (1x3 movement...heh)

Sorry if this has been answered in a different thread, just point me at it or answer this question, whichever is easier.
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Smiley
post Feb 27 2005, 06:38 AM
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I would just count the weight, not the armor rating. Add whatever weight the augments give towards the encumberance, but towards the quickness penalties... Just extermal armor.
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gamemaster
post Feb 27 2005, 06:38 AM
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i agree with smiley, the armor he gets from cyberware hes purchased not only with money but essence also its a part of him, external armor isnt.
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Wounded Ronin
post Feb 27 2005, 06:38 AM
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Don't forget the penalty also gives +TNs to quickness linked skills. That's sort of major in most cases.
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toturi
post Feb 27 2005, 06:42 AM
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Only the worn armour is considered for the quickness and other related penalties. The "armour" that cybernetics provides are bonuses, not armour per se.
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Necro Tech
post Feb 27 2005, 06:59 AM
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QUOTE (DocMortand)
A new character Lina created named "Boom" has 3 Quickness, and is a troll with titanium bone lacing (2/1 Armor), Orthoskin 3 (1/2 Armor) and then has armed clothing (3/2) + Lined Coat (total external armor 5/2 I believe).

Now according to the rules, the total armor is 8/5 I believe. now, according to armor and combat pool rules (SR3 pg. 285) He is -3 dice in his combat pool. However, do the bone lacing and orthoskin count in any way towards the layering armor rules? I initially have ruled that it didn't, but I'm curious what the bookninjas think. If it does count then this character can't move (he is over 3 points over his quickness, which means his movement is negative) If it doesn't then he can barely move (1x3 movement...heh)

Sorry if this has been answered in a different thread, just point me at it or answer this question, whichever is easier.

Actually, the armor value would be 8/6. Honestly, you are hurting yourself bad with this one as you will have -5 quickness, +5 to all quickness related tests and have -3 to combat pool. The cyber stuff doesn't count as layers because it isn't armor. Just get a armor jacket, have the same armor and only be -1 to your combat pool with no other penalties.
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tisoz
post Feb 27 2005, 07:10 AM
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I'd suggest a vest with plates and an unarmored long coat if he wants a concealment bonus.
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Fortune
post Feb 27 2005, 07:39 AM
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QUOTE (DocMortand @ Feb 27 2005, 05:32 PM)
... armed clothing (3/2) ...

Don't you mean [3/0]? Otherwise your numbers don't work out.

Edit: Even then, the unmodified totals for the worn armor would be [7/2] - Lined Coat is [4/2] + Armored Clothing [3/0] (it'd be [7/4] if the armor ratings in your example are actually correct). Assuming the former, he'd be at -2 Combat Pool and -4 to Quickness-related stuff. The implanted armor only counts towards encumberance.
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DocMortand
post Feb 27 2005, 08:36 PM
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I believe the armor value for worn armor is 5/2 (lined coat 4/2 + layered armor clothing which is 3/0 rounded down to 1/0)

So the consensus is the ortho/titanium shouldn't affect either the combat pool penalty or the quickness related penalties? In which case he is still walking around at 1x3 because of the armor, and -1 dice to combat pool...but at least he's mobile.

Just making sure - it makes sense to me, frankly, I just wanted to poll the bookninjas to see if they agreed or not. I tend to be as canon as possible, so I want to get things right and not houserule things (with a few exceptions, but who doesn't have those, 'cept toturi?)
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BitBasher
post Feb 27 2005, 08:42 PM
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Yes, armor values round down, and it does not say to a minimum of 1, therefore they will round down to zero if the second piece has a 1 in a rating.

Cyber/bio do noes not count as layering, it just adds to the end total.
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Fortune
post Feb 27 2005, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (DocMortand @ Feb 28 2005, 07:36 AM)
I believe the armor value for worn armor is 5/2  (lined coat 4/2 + layered armor clothing which is 3/0 rounded down to 1/0)

That's correct. If you check my post though, you'll see that I calculating the unmodified armor totals for the purposes of determining penalties.

The other point of my post was to correct the erroneous rating of the Armor Clothing that you originally listed, which seemed to be throwing some others off in their calculations.

QUOTE
In which case he is still walking around at 1x3 because of the armor, and -1 dice to combat pool...


He'd have a -2 to Combat Pool (-1 for each 2 points of unmodified armor rating exceeding Quickness ... 7 Ballistic rating exceeds Quickness 3 by 4, but no penalty from the Impact rating), and a +4 TN to Quickness-related tests.
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DocMortand
post Feb 27 2005, 10:48 PM
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Oh I see...so technically Boom can't move? His movement is negative (3-4=!@#$!#)...plus the -4 to quickness tests and -2 die to combat pool.

Eeek. He's gotta dump the armor clothing *quick*
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Fortune
post Feb 27 2005, 10:56 PM
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I'd say that it would be to a minimum of 1, so he could still move, but not very quickly.

And it's +4 to the TN for Quickness-related tests (like Firearms and Stealth).

Tell him to dump the Armored Clothing and pick up some Form-Fitted Body Armor (which doesn't count towards those penalties) to go along with his Lined Coat. Then he'd have no penalties at all, and have an Armor Rating of 6/2 to boot. :)
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DocMortand
post Feb 27 2005, 11:49 PM
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That's probably what he'll do, but he'll still have a +1 TN to quickness because I believe the lined coat is 4/2 and his Quick is 3.

Thanks for the help tho...that does clarify things and I need to educate the group now. *grin* I think everybody in there is fine...they have good armor but generally not above quickness plus the form fit.
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Necro Tech
post Feb 28 2005, 12:45 AM
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You only take quickness penalties when you layer armor. A single piece will only make you lose combat pool, which in your case would be nothing.
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DragginSPADE
post Feb 28 2005, 12:47 AM
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QUOTE (DocMortand)
That's probably what he'll do, but he'll still have a +1 TN to quickness because I believe the lined coat is 4/2 and his Quick is 3.



He won't even have the quickness penalty if he goes with the FFBA. The quickness penalties only apply if he's layering armor, and FFBA says it doesn't provide layering penalties. (Don't have CC at the moment to look up the exact wording.) The only penalty that would apply would be any combat pool lost for his worn ballistic rating.

[Edit] Never mind, Necro beat me to it.
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DocMortand
post Feb 28 2005, 01:21 AM
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o_o

Thanks for the clarification. bookninjas uber alles!
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LinaInverse
post Feb 28 2005, 04:33 AM
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Clarification:

Boom doesn't have Orthoskin, but he does have Titanium Bone Lace. Strength-based encumberance is *not* a factor for him; this guy has a Strength of 12. His normal layout is Lined Coat (yes, I want the Conceal bonus) and Armor Clothing. His unmodified Combat Pool is 7d6, and he also doesn't have any Quick-based skills, though the total loss of movement is obviously bad.

Short term; dump the Armor Clothing for now; get Form Fit as quick as possible.

Mid-term; get my Quick to racial max of 5.

Long-term (if I continue to play this char); get Muscle Augments to improve his quickness so he can get more armor...

EDIT: My bad; his unmodified Combat pool is only 4d6. I mis-read the writeup.
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Crusher Bob
post Feb 28 2005, 04:57 AM
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Remember that any long coat will give you the conceal bonus, even an unarmored one...

So you could wear form fit 4 and a vest with plates and a perfectly normal long coat...

Hmm, not sure how you are getting combat pool of 7, if you have Int 4 and Will 6 and quick 3, that should only be a CP of 6...
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DocMortand
post Feb 28 2005, 05:27 AM
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Eh, I don't buy the unarmored long coat having the same conceal bonuses as an armored one. IMO the reason you get conceal bonuses is it is a bulky coat that's stiff, so it doesn't show odd bulges as easily. A normal long coat would not have that stiffness because it doesn't have the armoring. And if it DOES have that stiffening, I probably has some kind of protection, and should count.

Sorry, not going to fly in my game.
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